Hans,
I think as Tim said in the modified log of r920213 we are only waiting that you
send us (committers) the credentials.
For the news section, I think your 1st intend was better, and from what I have
understood from Tim's comment he also agree. So my
opininon is that as soon as all commiters will have an access to this Tweeter account, we
could put back the "original Follow Us"
(as Tim called it in the modified log of r920213) button in main site header
and this issue would be closed. At this stage, do we
really need to have a vote and all this kind of stuff? Personnally I don't
think so.
Maybe there is something that you don't like in this solution? Then could you
please explain what?
Thanks
Jacques
From: "Hans Bakker" <[email protected]>
> Jacques,
> Let first see what Tims actions will result in. I did not sent any
> passwords yet.
>
> It would also be interesting to know what the opinion of our new PMC
> chair Jacopo is, he is awfully quiet. When we do not agree, he has to
> take a decision.
>
> I still think that with this twitter feed i provide a service to casual
> end users to keep them informed about the major topics in the project.
> Like a blog what is often updated. I still do not understand why it
> cannot be in the news section while other blogs are accepted there.
>
> Regards,
> Hans
>
> On Mon, 2010-03-08 at 10:29 +0100, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>> David,
>>
>> Something has to be done because, to be clear, Hans was not taking into account our comments repeated 2 or 3 times. I tried
>> this
>> harsh way because I knew it will do something. As I said I did not like to
do it and actually I was expecting some reactions.
>> It seems that it's not a success so far because I have not received the
credentials to http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz , but
>> maybe
>> other committers got it?
>>
>> Hans, I may help you if you need it and send you the list of commiters email addresses? Do you think this page/account is fair
>> if
>> we
>> (commiters) have no access to it?
>>
>> One more time I think Hans had a good idea to create this account and put a
button to it from the main page. It's only that it
>> should be shared. OK, let's see what will happen...
>>
>> Jacques
>>
>> From: "David E Jones" <[email protected]>
>> >
>> > I agree with you Tim, effective giving and responding to feedback is vitally important to successful collaboration and all
>> > of
>> > us
>> > working together to build a strong community and make good software.
Scott's response to my recent multi-tenant changes is a
>> > great
>> > example of such feedback, and hopefully I'll be able to respond to that
feedback in a helpful way.
>> >
>> > That is a bit different than the issue here, which is that Jacques seemed
to be trying to get people to do certain things
>> > because
>> > of rules. Confronting others on bad behavior or breaking rules is a good
thing IMO, but this was going beyond that with a
>> > specific
>> > interpretation of the rules that didn't seem to fit and specific remedies
to the indiscretions that also seemed somewhat
>> > unhelpful
>> > (ie getting into legal interpretations and remedies that are not
consistent with what others understood of laws and ASF
>> > policies),
>> > and then going even beyond that to threaten an appeal to greater authority
and possible legal action if the demands were not
>> > met,
>> > calling it all "justice". And yeah, I have a problem with that, hence my
message to confront Jacques for that behavior.
>> >
>> > Stepping to back to really effective communication and problem solving, if I were to push anything I guess it would be to
>> > read
>> > the
>> > book "Simpleology" by Mark Joyner. That book is full of excellent stuff
about problem solving and collaborating with others.
>> >
>> > While I'm plugging books I can't help but mention "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" by Robert Pirsig. It's a fun
>> > read
>> > and does the best job I've ever seen of dealing with the sometimes maddening topics of quality and subject/object
>> > distinction
>> > (some key elements of clear and useful thinking). Okay, that's only
related to this topic so much, but I had to mention it.
>> > This
>> > makes me want to sit down and do some reading (or go for a walk and do
some listening), but I guess I'm having too much fun
>> > redesigning the foundation of my career (which has been cathartic and
refreshing, sort of a Moqui ball like experience).
>> >
>> > -David
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mar 7, 2010, at 4:22 PM, Tim Ruppert wrote:
>> >
>> >> My real question would be why is it always "hurting" people to bring up
that the rules as they have been defined have been
>> >> broken
>> >> again? What was done wasn't correct, people mentioned it nicely, but
then that wasn't ok - and it goes from there.
>> >>
>> >> The simple process of someone breaking the rules or stretching the truth
SHOULD be able to be brought up - and instead of
>> >> defensiveness, it should be greeted with, "Man, I'm so sorry, let's look into that together." Instead, an innocuous
>> >> request
>> >> to
>> >> revert something that doesn't follow the PMC guidelines - or anyone's for that matter - was met with resistance and a
>> >> passive
>> >> aggressive comment meant to say that the original committer felt attacked.
>> >>
>> >> I think you need to start there - figuring out ways to get people to not be defensive in the face of someone looking at
>> >> their
>> >> work - then you can get back to building up the process of having people
work together. When someone cries wolf every time
>> >> anyone else mentions anything about the work - instead of taking the
initiative to engage in the dialog - then that's where
>> >> this
>> >> slippery slope starts. It really shouldn't go downhill when someone
questioning a commit - that should happen MORE often
>> >> IMO -
>> >> and the project would be better for it.
>> >>
>> >> Cheers,
>> >> Ruppert
>> >>
>> >> On Mar 7, 2010, at 4:16 PM, David E Jones wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> Hmmmm... given the misunderstanding of other things I've written (seems
to be from an incorrect guess at motives and goals
>> >>> for
>> >>> what I write), I guess we'll see how this goes. Maybe in advance I should say that
my point is that "Justice" is not an
>> >>> effective way to get people to do, or not do, something.
>> >>>
>> >>> The type of justice you're talking about is not following the rules, it
is trying to get other people to follow the rules.
>> >>> Unfortunately justice efforts are usually not about restitution and are
instead about punishment. And what is the point of
>> >>> that
>> >>> if not some form of revenge?
>> >>>
>> >>> People may feel better about being mean or harming others because the others have broken some rule, but I'd hardly say
>> >>> that
>> >>> justifies the meanness and harm, even if we do call that "justice". If there is a bad law do you feel an obligation to
>> >>> follow
>> >>> it, or do you feel justified in harming others because it allows you to? If so then you're in a group with most people in
>> >>> the
>> >>> world who think that they can blame their actions on those who make the
rules or tell them to do (or not do) something.
>> >>>
>> >>> Back to the point... how much use has that been here? Has it helped us
all get along and collaborate to produce better
>> >>> software?
>> >>>
>> >>> -David
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mar 7, 2010, at 2:36 PM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> I have any revenge in this. Justice is "follow the rules". Who make the
rules is another problem.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Jacques
>> >>>>
>> >>>> From: "David E Jones" <[email protected]>
>> >>>>> What does justice have to do with this? Also, is justice really a
priority for people?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I'll state clearly that it is not for me. Justice is highly subjective and
usually just a nice way of saying "revenge".
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> -David
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Mar 7, 2010, at 9:29 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> From: "Scott Gray" <[email protected]>
>> >>>>>>>> I should be pretty clear at this moment. The works "Apache" "OFBiz" and the
phrase "Apache OFBiz" are ASF trademarks:
>> >>>>>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/ (I use references to
sections of this page in the following)
>> >>>>>>>> So they can't be used in domain name (cf. section "Using Apache
trademarks in domain names"). Hans can't use
>> >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz alone as an individual or for his
company.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> This is a domain name: twitter.com
>> >>>>>>> This is a URL: twitter.com/apache_ofbiz
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Yes I was wrong on that one, so I can see no problems with
http://twitter.com/ofbizbyhotwax or
>> >>>>>> http://twitter.com/ofbiz_help
>> >>>>>> and I'm
>> >>>>>> happy with that.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> So the first half of your message is completely invalid and
threatening to contact higher level ASF admins before
>> >>>>>>> discussing
>> >>>>>>> it on
>> >>>>>>> the private list is bad form IMO.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Not completly, some arguments still stand and it would have been easier if you have kept them in your answer. Notably
>> >>>>>> the
>> >>>>>> name+logo
>> >>>>>> on http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz which was the main reason I wrote this message. I must say that in an effort to not
>> >>>>>> put
>> >>>>>> all on
>> >>>>>> this Tweeter account I thought about this wrong domain idea.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Secondly, use of the OFBiz name and logo on service provider
websites absolutely falls within the realm of nominative
>> >>>>>>> fair
>> >>>>>>> use IMO.
>> >>>>>>> How are you supposed to offer development and support services for OFBiz if you cannot mention the name OFBiz and
>> >>>>>>> display
>> >>>>>>> the logo?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Yes in most cases it's fair and I did not reproach anything else
about that than on http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> The fact that some logo uses do not link back to the project is a
minor issue and can easily be rectified without
>> >>>>>>> scaremongering by
>> >>>>>>> sending a polite message directly to the service provider in
question.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> If people are aware of it, why they did not do it then? This was the
reason of my message. When you want justice, you
>> >>>>>> can't
>> >>>>>> hide
>> >>>>>> facts, even minor ones.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Let's be clear, we want people to market OFBiz for us because we do
not have the resources to do an adequate job of it
>> >>>>>>> ourselves.
>> >>>>>>> The thing that I think we should be most concerned about and actively
"police" is what is written at the bottom of the
>> >>>>>>> ASF
>> >>>>>>> guideline document:
>> >>>>>> "Nothing in this ASF policy statement shall be interpreted to allow
any third party to claim any association with the
>> >>>>>> Apache
>> >>>>>> Software Foundation or any of its projects or to imply any approval
or support by ASF for any third party products or
>> >>>>>> services."
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Yes that's the point, I totally agree
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> We should be encouraging people to market OFBiz and instead of
sending out threatening emails.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> If things are clean and follow the rule it's fine with me
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> And lastly, haven't there been enough arguments on the dev list for
one week? Do you really need to spark another one
>> >>>>>>> right
>> >>>>>>> now?
>> >>>>>>> Constant bickering just makes us all look bad.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Bickering is a new word for me, thanks for that. I don't care about lookin
"bad", I just want justice.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Jacques
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Regards
>> >>>>>> Scott
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On 7/03/2010, at 7:20 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Scott,
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Could you explain which part(s) I'm mis-interpreting and what is
irrelevant in my message?
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Jacques
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> From: "Scott Gray" <[email protected]>
>> >>>>>>> Jacques, you are mis-interpreting the contents of that ASF document
and I really would prefer it if you kept your
>> >>>>>>> thoughts
>> >>>>>>> to the
>> >>>>>>> private list. This way we can correct you before you start scaring
people away from marketing the project for us.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Thank you
>> >>>>>>> Scott
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> On 7/03/2010, at 2:20 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Hey guys,
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> This could be so easy :/
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Hans agreed to give the credentials to all commiters but he asked
us to send him a demand.
>> >>>>>>>> We don't need to ask, if it's open Hans sould send all commiters the credential to share apache_ofbiz Twitter
>> >>>>>>>> account.
>> >>>>>>>> I should be pretty clear at this moment. The works "Apache" "OFBiz" and the
phrase "Apache OFBiz" are ASF trademarks:
>> >>>>>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/ (I use references to
sections of this page in the following)
>> >>>>>>>> So they can't be used in domain name (cf. section "Using Apache
trademarks in domain names"). Hans can't use
>> >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz alone as an individual or for his
company.
>> >>>>>>>> So please, for the last time, Hans before I ring Shane Curcuru's bell (current VP, Apache Brand Management), simply
>> >>>>>>>> send
>> >>>>>>>> credentials to all commiters and the war is over (Note that, though
I don't think it's the way to go, I already asked
>> >>>>>>>> you
>> >>>>>>>> to send
>> >>>>>>>> me credentials as you suggested, but did not receive anything yet). Then I suggest to put the button like you did
>> >>>>>>>> Hans.
>> >>>>>>>> It's a
>> >>>>>>>> *great idea* and I'm sure you will appreciate to have an help on
feeding the tweets as you already suggested.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/apache_ofbiz is a special case because not only
it uses ASF trademark in domain name but it also
>> >>>>>>>> shows
>> >>>>>>>> it on
>> >>>>>>>> the page, along with OFBiz logo not going back to
http://ofbiz.apache.org/ (cf. section "Using the Apache Foo (and
>> >>>>>>>> similar)
>> >>>>>>>> graphic logos")
>> >>>>>>>> But I don't see a reason why the rule for the domain should not
apply also to
>> >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/ofbiz_help
>> >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/ofbizbyhotwax
>> >>>>>>>> And Hans just followed the path actually... (is there other cases?)
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Some other points which are related and worth to be noted
>> >>>>>>>> Hotwax Media must care about how they use the OFBiz logo in their pages at http://www.hotwaxmedia.com. The rule is
>> >>>>>>>> that
>> >>>>>>>> if
>> >>>>>>>> it's
>> >>>>>>>> not adapted (like Hans did for OFBiz in Thailand at , it should
only link back to http://ofbiz.apache.org/
>> >>>>>>>> Same for the footer of http://www.antwebsystems.com/control/main (the "OFBiz feather" used for the tweet could be ok
>> >>>>>>>> if
>> >>>>>>>> all
>> >>>>>>>> commiters get credentials and the PMC agree is the OFBiz official Tweeter account). Now http://www.ofbiz.in.th/ is
>> >>>>>>>> wrong
>> >>>>>>>> also as
>> >>>>>>>> long it's not on the ASF infra (ofbiz should not be used in domain name outsided of ASF infrastructure, is there
>> >>>>>>>> other
>> >>>>>>>> cases?)
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> It's time to clean the house, before all this becomes unmanageable (proliferation). I made my best to explain the
>> >>>>>>>> rules,
>> >>>>>>>> if
>> >>>>>>>> you
>> >>>>>>>> see a flaw in my reasoning please correct me. If you see other cases that should be corrected, chime in, it's your
>> >>>>>>>> duty!
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> And please also understand that it's really not pleaseant for me (or anyone else I guess) to play the cop and spend
>> >>>>>>>> so
>> >>>>>>>> much
>> >>>>>>>> time
>> >>>>>>>> on this (for persons out of PMC, we already shared some about this privately). I dot it only because I'm a third
>> >>>>>>>> party
>> >>>>>>>> (ie
>> >>>>>>>> not
>> >>>>>>>> HWM affiliated nor Ant Web) and I like things to be clear and no injustices prevail. If we continue to ignore this
>> >>>>>>>> facts
>> >>>>>>>> they
>> >>>>>>>> will finally blow up in our faces (as this Tweeter account issue being to show) and nobody will win anything. There
>> >>>>>>>> are
>> >>>>>>>> rules,
>> >>>>>>>> why not simply follow them, is that so hard?
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Jacques
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> From: "Tim Ruppert" <[email protected]>
>> >>>>>>>>> Hans, please revert this one too - sorry. It wouldn't make sense
for all service providers to do this - so please
>> >>>>>>>>> let's
>> >>>>>>>>> not
>> >>>>>>>>> keep doing this stuff.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> What i would recommend for this kind of stuff, if we need to list it at all, would be to enhance the service
>> >>>>>>>>> providers
>> >>>>>>>>> page on
>> >>>>>>>>> the wiki. I mentioned this earlier but maybe we should add a full page, linked from the service provider page,
>> >>>>>>>>> where
>> >>>>>>>>> people
>> >>>>>>>>> can put this type of info? I personally think this is what your
own website is for, but I'm all for enhancing
>> >>>>>>>>> everyone's
>> >>>>>>>>> ability to get the word out.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> What does everyone think of that as a place to promote yourself?
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>> >>>>>>>>> Ruppert
>> >>>>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>>>> Tim Ruppert
>> >>>>>>>>> HotWax Media
>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> o:801.649.6594
>> >>>>>>>>> f:801.649.6595
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> On Mar 6, 2010, at 7:22 PM, Scott Gray
<[email protected]> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm only going to send one email about this, If anyone else cares
they can push it.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> This is news:
>> >>>>>>>>>>> <a href="http://www.twitter.com/apache_ofbiz/"; target="_blank">Now OFBiz on <b>TWITTER</b>, follow the news from
>> >>>>>>>>>>> an
>> >>>>>>>>>>> enduser
>> >>>>>>>>>>> perspective</a>, up to one tweet per day.
>> >>>>>>>>>> A link to your home page is not:
>> >>>>>>>>>>> You can also promote OFBiz at your site with this news, look <a
href="http://www.antwebsystems.com";>here for an
>> >>>>>>>>>>> example.</a>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Why you are constantly trying to push the boundaries I have no
idea.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Regards
>> >>>>>>>>>> Scott
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> On 6/03/2010, at 6:14 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Author: hansbak
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Date: Sun Mar 7 01:14:19 2010
>> >>>>>>>>>>> New Revision: 919905
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc?rev=919905&view=rev
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Log:
>> >>>>>>>>>>> announcing the ofbiz twitter news now in line with the other
news offerings.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Modified:
>> >>>>>>>>>>> ofbiz/site/index.html
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Modified: ofbiz/site/index.html
>> >>>>>>>>>>> URL:
http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/ofbiz/site/index.html?rev=919905&r1=919904&r2=919905&view=diff
>> >>>>>>>>>>> === === ===
=====================================================================
>> >>>>>>>>>>> --- ofbiz/site/index.html (original)
>> >>>>>>>>>>> +++ ofbiz/site/index.html Sun Mar 7 01:14:19 2010
>> >>>>>>>>>>> @@ -237,6 +237,7 @@
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> <h2>In the News</h2>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> <ul>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> + <li><a href="http://www.twitter.com/ apache_ofbiz/" target="_blank">Now OFBiz on
>> >>>>>>>>>>> <b>TWITTER</b>,
>> >>>>>>>>>>> follow
>> >>>>>>>>>>> the news from an enduser perspective</a>, up to one tweet per day. You can also promote OFBiz at your site with
>> >>>>>>>>>>> this
>> >>>>>>>>>>> news,
>> >>>>>>>>>>> look <a href="http://www.antwebsystems.com";>here for an
example.</a></li>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> <li><a
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-implementing-a-product-pdf-export/ "
>> >>>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Implementing a Product PDF
export</a> on <a
>> >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax
Media Blog</a></li>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> <li><a
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-implementing-a-product-csv-export/ "
>> >>>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Implementing a Product CSV
export</a> on <a
>> >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax
Media Blog</a></li>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> <li><a
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blog/ofbiz-tutorial-enhancing-the-product-list-screen/ "
>> >>>>>>>>>>> target="_blank">OFBiz Tutorial â?" Enhancing the Product list
screen</a> on <a
>> >>>>>>>>>>> href="http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/apache-ofbiz-blo g/" target="_blank">HotWax
Media Blog</a></li>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
> --
> Antwebsystems.com: Quality OFBiz services for competitive rates
>
