Irina, please, add the possible reason for flash crashes due to a driver, a third party soft or a browser cache to the faq 14.03.2013 13:32 пользователь "Irina Arkhipets" <[email protected]> написал:
> Yes, and actually I hope it would help my client too :) > > Regarding the video acceleration - actually, I just saw crash reports > similar with mine in Mozilla bug tracker, and the recommendation was to > turn this off. > > Regards, > Irina. > > On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 4:24 PM, [email protected] < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Hopefully the 26th tryout is no fail :) >> Glad we could track this down to be an environment issue. >> >> It would be nice to know if the hardware acceleration has an effect on the >> broadcasting (encoding) at all. >> I am pretty sure it has an impact on viewing / decoding. But I am not so >> sure for broadcasting/encoding video. >> >> Sebastian >> >> >> 2013/3/14 Irina Arkhipets <[email protected]> >> >> > Seems like it works for me. >> > >> > At least, after the ffdshow update I was able to enter/exit the room 25 >> > times without crash. >> > >> > I'll look for this a couple of days. And ask my client who claimed about >> > the problem to do the same things and additionally try to turn the >> hardware >> > acceleration off. >> > >> > Thank you, >> > Irina. >> > >> > On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 3:28 PM, Irina Arkhipets >> > <[email protected]>wrote: >> > >> > > Sebastian, >> > > >> > > It seems like you are correct and this depends on configuration. >> > > >> > > I've received a reply from Mozilla about my bug: >> > > ... >> > > According to the previous stack trace, it's not a Firefox bug neither >> a >> > > Flash >> > > one, but a FFDShow one. You are using version 1.1.3761.0 while the >> > current >> > > one >> > > is 1.3.4500. Update FFDShow: >> > > http://ffdshow-tryout.sourceforge.net/download.php >> > > Then report back. >> > > ... >> > > >> > > You can track this here: >> > > https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=850614 >> > > >> > > Will try their suggestion and inform you about the result. >> > > >> > > Best regards, >> > > Irina. >> > > >> > > >> > > On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 3:03 PM, [email protected] < >> > > [email protected]> wrote: >> > > >> > >> After all this sounds a lot like an issue with the webcam, >> microphone or >> > >> driver. >> > >> >> > >> The moment when your are in the conference, in the device settings >> and >> > >> click on the button >> > >> "start conference" what basically happens is that you set your >> > audio/video >> > >> settings and Flash access your webcam. >> > >> >> > >> So basically this is an environment issues. It could be also a >> > combination >> > >> of a Flash Player + certain device issues. >> > >> I bet the same issue happens for those users if they use any other >> Flash >> > >> application that requires access to cam/mic. >> > >> >> > >> What kind of microphone and camera are you using ? >> > >> Did you have maybe some driver that you can update or download for >> those >> > >> devices for your OS ? >> > >> >> > >> Sebastian >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> 2013/3/14 Maxim Solodovnik <[email protected]> >> > >> >> > >> > @Alexei unfortunately this would not help since we have no useful >> info >> > >> > after such crash :( >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 2:33 PM, Alexei Fedotov < >> > >> [email protected] >> > >> > >wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > > @Maxim, how difficult is to add a button for debug which would >> > >> start/quit >> > >> > > a conference in a loop to make the bug simpler to reproduce? >> > >> > > 14.03.2013 10:56 пользователь "Irina Arkhipets" < >> > >> > [email protected]> >> > >> > > написал: >> > >> > > >> > >> > > Hi Sebastian, >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> A). I use Win XP + FF 19.0 + flash 11.6.602.180. And Yulia have >> the >> > >> same >> > >> > >> problems on W7 + GH + 11.6.602.171. >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> B). Crash happens when I am entering the room after I click >> "Start >> > >> > >> Conference" in the "Choose device" screen. >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> C). Plugin crashes in the following way: I get >> > "plugin-container.exe" >> > >> > >> application error window with the possibility to click OK to >> > >> terminate >> > >> > and >> > >> > >> click CANCEL to debug. If I click OK I see a grey screen with >> the >> > >> "Adobe >> > >> > >> Flash plugin crashed" message and the "Send report" button. I >> need >> > to >> > >> > >> reload the page to continue work. >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> D). It seems like it's not possible to attach files when you >> write >> > to >> > >> > >> mailing list, so I'll will send you a screen shot personally. >> I've >> > >> also >> > >> > >> found a way to catch a report which is sent if I click the "Send >> > >> report" >> > >> > >> button - will send it to you too. >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> E). Nothing special in the server log and browser console >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> My additional notes: >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> - Crash is reproducible if I run FireFox in safe mode. >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> - Crash report reads: "Crash Reason >> > >> EXCEPTION_ACCESS_VIOLATION_WRITE". >> > >> > I >> > >> > >> read in Internet that it can happen because of some video driver >> > >> > problems >> > >> > >> if hardware acceleration is turmed on, however I've just turned >> it >> > >> off >> > >> > >> without improving >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> - I've filed bug against Mozilla and send them some info and >> crash >> > >> > report >> > >> > >> - >> > >> > >> maybe they'll provide some advice >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> - Setting dom.ipc.plugins.timeoutSecs to -1 in browser settings >> > does >> > >> not >> > >> > >> help (this is a timeout for the flash plugin response) >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> For now maybe I can try some flash debagger to try to debug >> this. >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> Best regards, >> > >> > >> Irina. >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 12:57 PM, [email protected] >> > >> > >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> > I think the issue has been reviewed. >> > >> > >> > So we can be sure that the codec change in the codec is not an >> > >> issue. >> > >> > >> > Maybe we can debug the crashes a bit more before we start the >> > vote. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > @Irina Thanks for the Tests! >> > >> > >> > Can you please check those questions >> > >> > >> > A) What OS and flash player Version and browser was that? >> > >> > >> > B) When did the crash happen exactly? >> > >> > >> > C) Did the Plugin crash in terms of: >> > >> > >> > 1) showing a dialog that a script is slowing down? >> > >> > >> > 2) Browser replaces complete Flash Applet and shows message >> like >> > >> > "player >> > >> > >> > crashed" so that also you need to restart the Browser >> > >> > >> > 3) Player freezes and no more clicks possible? >> > >> > >> > D) Is there a screenshot from such a crash somewhere? >> > >> > >> > E) Is there something is the servers log when the crash >> happens? >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Did the crash happen always at a certain user action (B) >> might be >> > >> the >> > >> > >> most >> > >> > >> > important question. >> > >> > >> > But it is also not clear to me yet what kind of crash we are >> > >> talking >> > >> > >> about. >> > >> > >> > Flash Player crash can have so many different meanings. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Thanks! >> > >> > >> > Sebastian >> > >> > >> > Am 14.03.2013 02:43 schrieb "Maxim Solodovnik" < >> > >> [email protected] >> > >> > >: >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > It seems like we have proof swf11+h264 not causing >> performance >> > >> > >> > degradation >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > > @Sebastian what do you think, is it time for RC2? >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > > On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 7:56 PM, Alexei Fedotov < >> > >> > >> > [email protected]>wrote: >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> Great job, Irina! >> > >> > >> > >> Thanks for digging this out. >> > >> > >> > >> -- >> > >> > >> > >> With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями, >> > >> > >> > >> Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов, >> > >> > >> > >> http://dataved.ru/ >> > >> > >> > >> +7 916 562 8095 >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Irina Arkhipets >> > >> > >> > >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > Hi All, >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > I investigated flash plugin crashes today and would like >> to >> > >> share >> > >> > >> some >> > >> > >> > >> > results. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > First of all, crash happens both with SWF10 and SWF 11. >> It >> > >> seems >> > >> > >> like >> > >> > >> > >> the >> > >> > >> > >> > problem is reproducible with H263, H264 1.2 and H264 5.1. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Actually, I haven't noticed significant CPU usage >> > degradation >> > >> for >> > >> > >> H264 >> > >> > >> > >> in >> > >> > >> > >> > compare with H263 - it always was about 50-70% when I >> enter >> > >> > >> > OpenMeetings >> > >> > >> > >> > room. The same is true about the memory usage. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > I was able to get the crash report in Mozilla, however >> for >> > now >> > >> > >> don't >> > >> > >> > see >> > >> > >> > >> > any info which can help me there. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Tested environment was: Windows XP + Mozilla FireFox >> 19.0 + >> > >> flash >> > >> > >> > player >> > >> > >> > >> > 11.5.502.146. Tested server was demo.dataved.ru, there >> were >> > >> two >> > >> > >> users >> > >> > >> > >> with >> > >> > >> > >> > videos (1 with big window and the other with normal) in >> the >> > >> room >> > >> > + >> > >> > >> me >> > >> > >> > >> with >> > >> > >> > >> > normal window. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > For now anybody can try different cases on >> > >> > >> > >> > http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings and get own >> expression. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Below are the links which can be tested and my today >> results >> > >> for >> > >> > >> each >> > >> > >> > of >> > >> > >> > >> > them: >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > - >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings/?swf=main.as3.swf10.swf&junk=666- >> > >> > >> > >> > SWF10 + H263. Crashed 3 times from 10. >> > >> > >> > >> > - >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings/?swf=main.as3.swf11.h263.swf&junk=666- >> > >> > >> > >> > SWF11 + H263. Crashed 0 times from 10. >> > >> > >> > >> > - >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings/?swf=main.as3.swf11.h264_1_2.swf&junk=666- >> > >> > >> > >> > SWF11 + H264 1.2. Crashed 2 times from 10. >> > >> > >> > >> > - >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings/?swf=main.as3.swf11.h264_5_1.swf&junk=666- >> > >> > >> > >> > SWF11 + H264 5/1/ Crashed 1 times from 10. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Best regards, >> > >> > >> > >> > Irina. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 5:02 PM, Maxim Solodovnik < >> > >> > >> > [email protected] >> > >> > >> > >> >wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> that is definitely something not readable :( >> > >> > >> > >> >> I can see the word "static" in the generated code :) >> this >> > is >> > >> > >> global >> > >> > >> > >> >> variables :))) >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:57 PM, [email protected]< >> > >> > >> > >> >> [email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> > just for consideration, >> > >> > >> > >> >> > attached is the current AS3 that OpenLaszlo generates. >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/download/attachments/27836308/lzswf9.tar.gz >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> > Sebastian >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> > 2013/3/13 Maxim Solodovnik <[email protected]> >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> I thought maybe it will be simple to convert swf10 >> > folder >> > >> of >> > >> > >> our >> > >> > >> > >> sources >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> + I would like "someone else" will handle it :)))) >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:38 PM, >> [email protected]< >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> [email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> Sorry but that is useless. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> The AS3 code that OpenLaszlo compiles is not human >> > >> readable. >> > >> > >> It >> > >> > >> > is >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> generated into some tmp directory. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> You can search on your disc for a file called >> > >> > >> > LZC_COMPILER_OPTIONS >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> That should be into the same directory as the actual >> > AS3 >> > >> > >> files. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> The thing is that there are of course some high >> level >> > >> > >> > similarities. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> However there are also high level similarities >> between >> > >> AS3 >> > >> > and >> > >> > >> > >> HTML5. >> > >> > >> > >> >> For >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> example an ActionScript3 "Sprite" is nearly the >> same as >> > >> an >> > >> > >> HTML >> > >> > >> > >> "div" >> > >> > >> > >> >> or >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> maybe "span" but you can really translate those >> things >> > >> just >> > >> > >> and >> > >> > >> > >> expect >> > >> > >> > >> >> the >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> functionality is the same. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> The entire notation in MXML is different, same about >> > the >> > >> > >> script >> > >> > >> > >> blogs. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> A script blog in openlaszlo looks like: >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> var zxac = 3; >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> in AS it would look like: >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> var zxac:int = 3; >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> No matter how you do it, you will have to go through >> > >> every >> > >> > >> file, >> > >> > >> > >> debug >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> every line of code, understand the logic, convert >> it to >> > >> > MXML, >> > >> > >> > test >> > >> > >> > >> it. >> > >> > >> > >> >> And >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> some constructs of course won't translate that easy. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> For example in Flex you can't create that simple a >> > >> "global" >> > >> > >> > >> pointer. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> Like: canvas.myattribute or parent.myattribute >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> This simply won't compile. AS3 won't let you compile >> > such >> > >> > >> > >> pointers. You >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> need to pass the parameter into the object to access >> > its >> > >> > >> > >> attributes, or >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> pass the attribute inside of it. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> So a lot of the things we do when having some >> attribute >> > >> in >> > >> > the >> > >> > >> > >> canvas >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> and pointing to them from various places in the app >> ... >> > >> it >> > >> > >> simply >> > >> > >> > >> >> doesn't >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> work in MXML. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> So of course it depends on to what extend you plan >> to >> > >> build >> > >> > a >> > >> > >> > Flex >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> client. Maybe just the SWF11 app converting to MXML >> is >> > an >> > >> > >> option. >> > >> > >> > >> But >> > >> > >> > >> >> the >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> entire SWF8 app. I don't think so. Just too complex. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> Sebastian >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> 2013/3/13 Alexei Fedotov <[email protected]> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> The files appear in some temporary directory. I >> cannot >> > >> > >> remember >> > >> > >> > >> where >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> they are exactly. If you make an error when >> embedding >> > >> > action >> > >> > >> > >> script >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> into openlaszlo (should be something on action >> script >> > >> > level, >> > >> > >> xml >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> markup would break the preprocessor itself), you >> get >> > in >> > >> the >> > >> > >> > error >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> message an exact pointer to the file where your >> error >> > is >> > >> > put. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> -- >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями, >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов, >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> http://dataved.ru/ >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> +7 916 562 8095 >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Maxim Solodovnik >> < >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > @Alexey we currently using flex 4.5.0, 4.6.1 to >> > create >> > >> > >> > bytecode >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > "can be inspected/used" means autoconverted :) >> > action >> > >> > >> script >> > >> > >> > >> instead >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> of >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > openlaszlo is also good :) >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > can you please tell me how this can be inspected? >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > @Sebastian I thought we use only >> > >> > >> view/label/dataset/connection >> > >> > >> > >> in >> > >> > >> > >> >> our >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> swf10 >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > code .... all these primitives should be >> available >> > in >> > >> > MXML. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 2:52 PM, Alexei Fedotov < >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> [email protected]> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> @Max AS3 means action script >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> Modern OpenLaszlo compiles into AS3, these files >> > can >> > >> be >> > >> > >> > >> inspected >> > >> > >> > >> >> and >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> used instead of openlaszlo files. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> Then standard Adobe tools create swf bytecode >> from >> > >> AS3. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> -- >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями, >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов, >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> http://dataved.ru/ >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> +7 916 562 8095 >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 11:18 AM, >> > >> [email protected] >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > MXML has certainly advantages in the sense of >> > wider >> > >> > >> > >> acceptance >> > >> > >> > >> >> and >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > better >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > development tools. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > But it really means to build something from >> > >> scratch. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Sebastian >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > 2013/3/13 Maxim Solodovnik < >> [email protected] >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> @Alexey we currently using openlaszlo for >> video >> > >> (not >> > >> > >> sure >> > >> > >> > >> what >> > >> > >> > >> >> do >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> you >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> mean >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> by AS3). Currently our version of video >> > >> components is >> > >> > >> > built >> > >> > >> > >> >> using >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> flex.4.6.1 while actual version available for >> > >> > download >> > >> > >> is >> > >> > >> > >> flex >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> 4.9.1. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> I was hoping we will have less bugs and >> better >> > >> > >> performance >> > >> > >> > >> if we >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> will >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> use >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> MXML directly for our code. But this is just >> a >> > >> guess. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 2:00 PM, >> > >> > [email protected]< >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> [email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> You can simply disable h264 and build to >> swf11. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> It is only about the codec not about SWF >> > formats. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> I just compared and could not really find >> out >> > if >> > >> > there >> > >> > >> > are >> > >> > >> > >> big >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> differences. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> However it is definitly good to really >> compare >> > >> the >> > >> > >> > impacts >> > >> > >> > >> on >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> CPU and >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> bandwidth usage when switching the Codec for >> > >> video >> > >> > >> > >> encoding. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> It seemed to me like encoding with h264 is >> > using >> > >> a >> > >> > >> second >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> process (on >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> OSX >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> that process is called WindowsServer). It >> might >> > >> be >> > >> > >> that >> > >> > >> > >> h264 >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> encoding >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> can >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> use some more system ressources. However... >> all >> > >> just >> > >> > >> > >> guessing >> > >> > >> > >> >> at >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> this >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> point. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> Sebastian >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> 2013/3/13 Maxim Solodovnik < >> > [email protected] >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> Maybe we can add conversion task to the >> GSOC >> > >> ideas? >> > >> > >> do >> > >> > >> > we >> > >> > >> > >> need >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> it? >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> I don't see any problems with h264 >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> I'm going to build >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> 1) SWF11 with h264 support removed >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> 2) SWF11 with different h264 profile >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> 3) SWF10 >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> and compare >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> but i'm not expecting any major >> differences :( >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 1:17 PM, >> > >> > >> [email protected]< >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> No there is no such conversion. You have >> to >> > >> > rewrite >> > >> > >> the >> > >> > >> > >> LZX >> > >> > >> > >> >> to >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> MXML >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> and >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> AS3 files. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> What about the Video Codec? I don't think >> it >> > >> makes >> > >> > >> > sense >> > >> > >> > >> to >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> start a >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> RC2 >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> vote before this issue has been further >> > >> analyzed. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> Is there a given restriction that needs >> h264? >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> Sebastian >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> 2013/3/13 Maxim Solodovnik < >> > >> [email protected]> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> @Sebastian, maybe you know, is there any >> > >> > >> possibility >> > >> > >> > to >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> automatically/semi-automatically convert >> our >> > >> > swf10 >> > >> > >> > >> sources >> > >> > >> > >> >> to >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> "apache flex >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> xml"? Since Openlaszlo seems to be not >> > >> actively >> > >> > >> > >> developed >> > >> > >> > >> >> and >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> flex >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> is now >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> part of Apache, maybe we can benefit from >> > such >> > >> > >> > >> conversion? >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Maxim >> > >> > Solodovnik < >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> I have forwarded all missing messages >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:25 PM, >> > >> > >> > [email protected]< >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> you wrote me without CC'ing Irina or >> the >> > >> list >> > >> > :) >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> I missed the 'reply all' button >> somehow. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> Sebastian >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> 2013/3/12 Maxim Solodovnik < >> > >> > [email protected] >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> this one >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OPENMEETINGS-559 >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> @Irina can you describe your problem >> more >> > >> > >> detailed? >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 3:46 PM, >> > >> > >> > >> [email protected] < >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> We should simply do some tests to >> > measure >> > >> the >> > >> > >> > actual >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> video with >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> h264 and the default Sorensen Codec. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Then we have some numbers. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> What are the exact reports for "Flash >> > >> Player >> > >> > >> > >> crashing" ? >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Sebastian >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> 2013/3/12 Maxim Solodovnik < >> > >> > >> [email protected]> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> I can add switching H264 off, but >> I'm >> > not >> > >> > >> sure if >> > >> > >> > >> this >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> is the >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> problem. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Most claims are related to the >> crashing >> > >> > flash >> > >> > >> in >> > >> > >> > >> >> browser. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Do you think this would help? >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 2:56 PM, >> > >> > >> > >> [email protected]< >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry I did not meant default h323 >> I >> > >> meant >> > >> > >> the >> > >> > >> > >> default >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sorenson Spark >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> < >> > >> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorenson_Spark >> > >> > >> > >> >> >(Sorenson >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> H.263) >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sebastian >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> 2013/3/12 [email protected] < >> > >> > >> > >> >> [email protected]> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> h264 simply needs more computing >> time. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> AEC also is enabled (which needs >> some >> > >> > >> > percentages >> > >> > >> > >> >> more >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> CPU >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> power then the previous >> > >> implementation). >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Switching to later Flex SDK is >> surely >> > >> > >> desirable >> > >> > >> > >> but >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> basically >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the performance is a Flash >> > >> > >> > Player/VirtualMachine >> > >> > >> > >> >> issue >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> not a >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Flash Compiler >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> issue. So as long as there is no >> > Flash >> > >> > >> Player >> > >> > >> > 12 >> > >> > >> > >> that >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> requires a later Flex >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> SDK it is unlikely that you will >> gain >> > >> > >> > performance >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> advantages. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I think there is a hardware >> > >> acceleration >> > >> > for >> > >> > >> > >> playback >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> of >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> h264 >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> video, but I have really no idea >> > about >> > >> > >> > producing >> > >> > >> > >> h264 >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> in the >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> browser in >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that context. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> From my point of view the main >> reason >> > >> for >> > >> > >> using >> > >> > >> > >> h264 >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> is the >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> SIP >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> integration. For users that don't >> use >> > >> SIP >> > >> > >> > >> integration >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> using >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> h264 will >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> simply just mean an annoying CPU >> > usage. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The case is different for AEC >> from my >> > >> > point >> > >> > >> of >> > >> > >> > >> view. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> AEC >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> brings >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> enhancement for everybody >> > immediately. >> > >> And >> > >> > >> the >> > >> > >> > >> more >> > >> > >> > >> >> of >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> CPU >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that it uses is >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> only 3-4 % from my point of view. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> So my preference would be to make >> the >> > >> > video >> > >> > >> > >> codec use >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> the >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> standard h323. To be honest: Who >> has >> > >> ever >> > >> > >> > >> complained >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> in the >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> last couple of >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> years about video quality? The >> > >> discussion >> > >> > is >> > >> > >> > >> almost >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> always >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> about audio >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> delay, audio quality, micro echo, >> bad >> > >> > >> > >> microphones et >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> cetera >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> but actually >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> never about video quality. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And from what I have seen h264 >> also >> > >> brings >> > >> > >> no >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> improvements >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> in >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> terms of bandwidth usage. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> h264 could be available via >> > >> configuration >> > >> > >> (or >> > >> > >> > to >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> enable SIP >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> integration), but h323 should be >> used >> > >> by >> > >> > >> > default. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sebastian >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2013/3/12 Maxim Solodovnik < >> > >> > >> > [email protected] >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello Raju, Sebastian, >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> according to >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OPENMEETINGS-559and >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> various user reports (including >> mail >> > >> from >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> Sebastian[1]) >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Main code changes were: adding >> > >> > >> > >> EnchancedMicrophone >> > >> > >> > >> >> and >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> switch >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to h264 >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> According to the Google >> switching to >> > >> h264 >> > >> > >> can >> > >> > >> > >> cause >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> higher >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> CPU >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> usage. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can this be fixed by changing >> > >> H264Level? >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (currently H264Level.LEVEL_1_2 is >> > >> used) >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe you can us understand were >> > >> > >> > >> >> performance/stability >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> degradation caused by code >> changes? >> > Or >> > >> > >> maybe >> > >> > >> > it >> > >> > >> > >> is >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> because >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of Flex4.6.0? >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can stability be improved by >> > >> switching to >> > >> > >> > >> Flex4.9.1? >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks in advance for your help >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [1] >> > >> > >> > >> http://markmail.org/message/2el63qarsjmbvfyy >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> < >> > >> > >> > http://markmail.org/message/2el63qarsjmbvfyy >> > >> > >> > >> >-- >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> WBR >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maxim aka solomax >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sebastian Wagner >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sebastian Wagner >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> WBR >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Maxim aka solomax >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> -- >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Sebastian Wagner >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> -- >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> WBR >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Maxim aka solomax >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> -- >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> Sebastian Wagner >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> [email protected] >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> -- >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> WBR >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> Maxim aka solomax >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> -- >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> WBR >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> Maxim aka solomax >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> -- >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> Sebastian Wagner >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> [email protected] >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> -- >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> WBR >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> Maxim aka solomax >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> -- >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> Sebastian Wagner >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> http://www.webbase-design.de >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> [email protected] >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> -- >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> WBR >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> Maxim aka solomax >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > -- >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Sebastian Wagner >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > http://www.webbase-design.de >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > http://www.wagner-sebastian.com >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > [email protected] >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > -- >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > WBR >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > Maxim aka solomax >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> -- >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> Sebastian Wagner >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> http://www.webbase-design.de >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> [email protected] >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> WBR >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> Maxim aka solomax >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> > -- >> > >> > >> > >> >> > Sebastian Wagner >> > >> > >> > >> >> > https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock >> > >> > >> > >> >> > http://www.webbase-design.de >> > >> > >> > >> >> > http://www.wagner-sebastian.com >> > >> > >> > >> >> > [email protected] >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> -- >> > >> > >> > >> >> WBR >> > >> > >> > >> >> Maxim aka solomax >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > > -- >> > >> > >> > > WBR >> > >> > >> > > Maxim aka solomax >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > >> > WBR >> > >> > Maxim aka solomax >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> -- >> > >> Sebastian Wagner >> > >> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock >> > >> http://www.webbase-design.de >> > >> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com >> > >> [email protected] >> > >> >> > > >> > > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Sebastian Wagner >> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock >> http://www.webbase-design.de >> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com >> [email protected] >> > >
