Alexey, Sure. The problem was not stable reproducible, so I just want to wait some time to check that the problem really went down for me after the changes.
On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 5:28 PM, Alexei Fedotov <[email protected]>wrote: > Irina, please, add the possible reason for flash crashes due to a driver, > a third party soft or a browser cache to the faq > 14.03.2013 13:32 пользователь "Irina Arkhipets" <[email protected]> > написал: > > Yes, and actually I hope it would help my client too :) >> >> Regarding the video acceleration - actually, I just saw crash reports >> similar with mine in Mozilla bug tracker, and the recommendation was to >> turn this off. >> >> Regards, >> Irina. >> >> On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 4:24 PM, [email protected] < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Hopefully the 26th tryout is no fail :) >>> Glad we could track this down to be an environment issue. >>> >>> It would be nice to know if the hardware acceleration has an effect on >>> the >>> broadcasting (encoding) at all. >>> I am pretty sure it has an impact on viewing / decoding. But I am not so >>> sure for broadcasting/encoding video. >>> >>> Sebastian >>> >>> >>> 2013/3/14 Irina Arkhipets <[email protected]> >>> >>> > Seems like it works for me. >>> > >>> > At least, after the ffdshow update I was able to enter/exit the room 25 >>> > times without crash. >>> > >>> > I'll look for this a couple of days. And ask my client who claimed >>> about >>> > the problem to do the same things and additionally try to turn the >>> hardware >>> > acceleration off. >>> > >>> > Thank you, >>> > Irina. >>> > >>> > On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 3:28 PM, Irina Arkhipets >>> > <[email protected]>wrote: >>> > >>> > > Sebastian, >>> > > >>> > > It seems like you are correct and this depends on configuration. >>> > > >>> > > I've received a reply from Mozilla about my bug: >>> > > ... >>> > > According to the previous stack trace, it's not a Firefox bug >>> neither a >>> > > Flash >>> > > one, but a FFDShow one. You are using version 1.1.3761.0 while the >>> > current >>> > > one >>> > > is 1.3.4500. Update FFDShow: >>> > > http://ffdshow-tryout.sourceforge.net/download.php >>> > > Then report back. >>> > > ... >>> > > >>> > > You can track this here: >>> > > https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=850614 >>> > > >>> > > Will try their suggestion and inform you about the result. >>> > > >>> > > Best regards, >>> > > Irina. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 3:03 PM, [email protected] < >>> > > [email protected]> wrote: >>> > > >>> > >> After all this sounds a lot like an issue with the webcam, >>> microphone or >>> > >> driver. >>> > >> >>> > >> The moment when your are in the conference, in the device settings >>> and >>> > >> click on the button >>> > >> "start conference" what basically happens is that you set your >>> > audio/video >>> > >> settings and Flash access your webcam. >>> > >> >>> > >> So basically this is an environment issues. It could be also a >>> > combination >>> > >> of a Flash Player + certain device issues. >>> > >> I bet the same issue happens for those users if they use any other >>> Flash >>> > >> application that requires access to cam/mic. >>> > >> >>> > >> What kind of microphone and camera are you using ? >>> > >> Did you have maybe some driver that you can update or download for >>> those >>> > >> devices for your OS ? >>> > >> >>> > >> Sebastian >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> 2013/3/14 Maxim Solodovnik <[email protected]> >>> > >> >>> > >> > @Alexei unfortunately this would not help since we have no useful >>> info >>> > >> > after such crash :( >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 2:33 PM, Alexei Fedotov < >>> > >> [email protected] >>> > >> > >wrote: >>> > >> > >>> > >> > > @Maxim, how difficult is to add a button for debug which would >>> > >> start/quit >>> > >> > > a conference in a loop to make the bug simpler to reproduce? >>> > >> > > 14.03.2013 10:56 пользователь "Irina Arkhipets" < >>> > >> > [email protected]> >>> > >> > > написал: >>> > >> > > >>> > >> > > Hi Sebastian, >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> A). I use Win XP + FF 19.0 + flash 11.6.602.180. And Yulia >>> have the >>> > >> same >>> > >> > >> problems on W7 + GH + 11.6.602.171. >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> B). Crash happens when I am entering the room after I click >>> "Start >>> > >> > >> Conference" in the "Choose device" screen. >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> C). Plugin crashes in the following way: I get >>> > "plugin-container.exe" >>> > >> > >> application error window with the possibility to click OK to >>> > >> terminate >>> > >> > and >>> > >> > >> click CANCEL to debug. If I click OK I see a grey screen with >>> the >>> > >> "Adobe >>> > >> > >> Flash plugin crashed" message and the "Send report" button. I >>> need >>> > to >>> > >> > >> reload the page to continue work. >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> D). It seems like it's not possible to attach files when you >>> write >>> > to >>> > >> > >> mailing list, so I'll will send you a screen shot personally. >>> I've >>> > >> also >>> > >> > >> found a way to catch a report which is sent if I click the >>> "Send >>> > >> report" >>> > >> > >> button - will send it to you too. >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> E). Nothing special in the server log and browser console >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> My additional notes: >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> - Crash is reproducible if I run FireFox in safe mode. >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> - Crash report reads: "Crash Reason >>> > >> EXCEPTION_ACCESS_VIOLATION_WRITE". >>> > >> > I >>> > >> > >> read in Internet that it can happen because of some video >>> driver >>> > >> > problems >>> > >> > >> if hardware acceleration is turmed on, however I've just >>> turned it >>> > >> off >>> > >> > >> without improving >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> - I've filed bug against Mozilla and send them some info and >>> crash >>> > >> > report >>> > >> > >> - >>> > >> > >> maybe they'll provide some advice >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> - Setting dom.ipc.plugins.timeoutSecs to -1 in browser settings >>> > does >>> > >> not >>> > >> > >> help (this is a timeout for the flash plugin response) >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> For now maybe I can try some flash debagger to try to debug >>> this. >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> Best regards, >>> > >> > >> Irina. >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 12:57 PM, [email protected] >>> > >> > >> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> > I think the issue has been reviewed. >>> > >> > >> > So we can be sure that the codec change in the codec is not >>> an >>> > >> issue. >>> > >> > >> > Maybe we can debug the crashes a bit more before we start the >>> > vote. >>> > >> > >> > >>> > >> > >> > @Irina Thanks for the Tests! >>> > >> > >> > Can you please check those questions >>> > >> > >> > A) What OS and flash player Version and browser was that? >>> > >> > >> > B) When did the crash happen exactly? >>> > >> > >> > C) Did the Plugin crash in terms of: >>> > >> > >> > 1) showing a dialog that a script is slowing down? >>> > >> > >> > 2) Browser replaces complete Flash Applet and shows message >>> like >>> > >> > "player >>> > >> > >> > crashed" so that also you need to restart the Browser >>> > >> > >> > 3) Player freezes and no more clicks possible? >>> > >> > >> > D) Is there a screenshot from such a crash somewhere? >>> > >> > >> > E) Is there something is the servers log when the crash >>> happens? >>> > >> > >> > >>> > >> > >> > Did the crash happen always at a certain user action (B) >>> might be >>> > >> the >>> > >> > >> most >>> > >> > >> > important question. >>> > >> > >> > But it is also not clear to me yet what kind of crash we are >>> > >> talking >>> > >> > >> about. >>> > >> > >> > Flash Player crash can have so many different meanings. >>> > >> > >> > >>> > >> > >> > Thanks! >>> > >> > >> > Sebastian >>> > >> > >> > Am 14.03.2013 02:43 schrieb "Maxim Solodovnik" < >>> > >> [email protected] >>> > >> > >: >>> > >> > >> > >>> > >> > >> > > It seems like we have proof swf11+h264 not causing >>> performance >>> > >> > >> > degradation >>> > >> > >> > > >>> > >> > >> > > @Sebastian what do you think, is it time for RC2? >>> > >> > >> > > >>> > >> > >> > > >>> > >> > >> > > On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 7:56 PM, Alexei Fedotov < >>> > >> > >> > [email protected]>wrote: >>> > >> > >> > > >>> > >> > >> > >> Great job, Irina! >>> > >> > >> > >> Thanks for digging this out. >>> > >> > >> > >> -- >>> > >> > >> > >> With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями, >>> > >> > >> > >> Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов, >>> > >> > >> > >> http://dataved.ru/ >>> > >> > >> > >> +7 916 562 8095 >>> > >> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> > >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Irina Arkhipets >>> > >> > >> > >> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> > >> > >> > >> > Hi All, >>> > >> > >> > >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > I investigated flash plugin crashes today and would >>> like to >>> > >> share >>> > >> > >> some >>> > >> > >> > >> > results. >>> > >> > >> > >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > First of all, crash happens both with SWF10 and SWF 11. >>> It >>> > >> seems >>> > >> > >> like >>> > >> > >> > >> the >>> > >> > >> > >> > problem is reproducible with H263, H264 1.2 and H264 >>> 5.1. >>> > >> > >> > >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > Actually, I haven't noticed significant CPU usage >>> > degradation >>> > >> for >>> > >> > >> H264 >>> > >> > >> > >> in >>> > >> > >> > >> > compare with H263 - it always was about 50-70% when I >>> enter >>> > >> > >> > OpenMeetings >>> > >> > >> > >> > room. The same is true about the memory usage. >>> > >> > >> > >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > I was able to get the crash report in Mozilla, however >>> for >>> > now >>> > >> > >> don't >>> > >> > >> > see >>> > >> > >> > >> > any info which can help me there. >>> > >> > >> > >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > Tested environment was: Windows XP + Mozilla FireFox >>> 19.0 + >>> > >> flash >>> > >> > >> > player >>> > >> > >> > >> > 11.5.502.146. Tested server was demo.dataved.ru, there >>> were >>> > >> two >>> > >> > >> users >>> > >> > >> > >> with >>> > >> > >> > >> > videos (1 with big window and the other with normal) in >>> the >>> > >> room >>> > >> > + >>> > >> > >> me >>> > >> > >> > >> with >>> > >> > >> > >> > normal window. >>> > >> > >> > >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > For now anybody can try different cases on >>> > >> > >> > >> > http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings and get own >>> expression. >>> > >> > >> > >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > Below are the links which can be tested and my today >>> results >>> > >> for >>> > >> > >> each >>> > >> > >> > of >>> > >> > >> > >> > them: >>> > >> > >> > >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > - >>> > >> > >> > >>> > >> >>> http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings/?swf=main.as3.swf10.swf&junk=666- >>> > >> > >> > >> > SWF10 + H263. Crashed 3 times from 10. >>> > >> > >> > >> > - >>> > >> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> > >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >>> > >> >>> > >>> http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings/?swf=main.as3.swf11.h263.swf&junk=666- >>> > >> > >> > >> > SWF11 + H263. Crashed 0 times from 10. >>> > >> > >> > >> > - >>> > >> > >> > >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> > >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >>> > >> >>> > >>> http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings/?swf=main.as3.swf11.h264_1_2.swf&junk=666- >>> > >> > >> > >> > SWF11 + H264 1.2. Crashed 2 times from 10. >>> > >> > >> > >> > - >>> > >> > >> > >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> > >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >>> > >> >>> > >>> http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings/?swf=main.as3.swf11.h264_5_1.swf&junk=666- >>> > >> > >> > >> > SWF11 + H264 5/1/ Crashed 1 times from 10. >>> > >> > >> > >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > Best regards, >>> > >> > >> > >> > Irina. >>> > >> > >> > >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 5:02 PM, Maxim Solodovnik < >>> > >> > >> > [email protected] >>> > >> > >> > >> >wrote: >>> > >> > >> > >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> >> that is definitely something not readable :( >>> > >> > >> > >> >> I can see the word "static" in the generated code :) >>> this >>> > is >>> > >> > >> global >>> > >> > >> > >> >> variables :))) >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:57 PM, [email protected]< >>> > >> > >> > >> >> [email protected]> wrote: >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> > just for consideration, >>> > >> > >> > >> >> > attached is the current AS3 that OpenLaszlo >>> generates. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> > >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >>> > >> >>> > >>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/download/attachments/27836308/lzswf9.tar.gz >>> > >> > >> > >> >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> >> > Sebastian >>> > >> > >> > >> >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> >> > 2013/3/13 Maxim Solodovnik <[email protected]> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >> I thought maybe it will be simple to convert swf10 >>> > folder >>> > >> of >>> > >> > >> our >>> > >> > >> > >> sources >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >> + I would like "someone else" will handle it :)))) >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:38 PM, >>> [email protected]< >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >> [email protected]> wrote: >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> Sorry but that is useless. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> The AS3 code that OpenLaszlo compiles is not human >>> > >> readable. >>> > >> > >> It >>> > >> > >> > is >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> generated into some tmp directory. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> You can search on your disc for a file called >>> > >> > >> > LZC_COMPILER_OPTIONS >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> That should be into the same directory as the >>> actual >>> > AS3 >>> > >> > >> files. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> The thing is that there are of course some high >>> level >>> > >> > >> > similarities. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> However there are also high level similarities >>> between >>> > >> AS3 >>> > >> > and >>> > >> > >> > >> HTML5. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> For >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> example an ActionScript3 "Sprite" is nearly the >>> same as >>> > >> an >>> > >> > >> HTML >>> > >> > >> > >> "div" >>> > >> > >> > >> >> or >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> maybe "span" but you can really translate those >>> things >>> > >> just >>> > >> > >> and >>> > >> > >> > >> expect >>> > >> > >> > >> >> the >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> functionality is the same. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> The entire notation in MXML is different, same >>> about >>> > the >>> > >> > >> script >>> > >> > >> > >> blogs. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> A script blog in openlaszlo looks like: >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> var zxac = 3; >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> in AS it would look like: >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> var zxac:int = 3; >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> No matter how you do it, you will have to go >>> through >>> > >> every >>> > >> > >> file, >>> > >> > >> > >> debug >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> every line of code, understand the logic, convert >>> it to >>> > >> > MXML, >>> > >> > >> > test >>> > >> > >> > >> it. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> And >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> some constructs of course won't translate that >>> easy. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> For example in Flex you can't create that simple a >>> > >> "global" >>> > >> > >> > >> pointer. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> Like: canvas.myattribute or parent.myattribute >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> This simply won't compile. AS3 won't let you >>> compile >>> > such >>> > >> > >> > >> pointers. You >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> need to pass the parameter into the object to >>> access >>> > its >>> > >> > >> > >> attributes, or >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> pass the attribute inside of it. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> So a lot of the things we do when having some >>> attribute >>> > >> in >>> > >> > the >>> > >> > >> > >> canvas >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> and pointing to them from various places in the >>> app ... >>> > >> it >>> > >> > >> simply >>> > >> > >> > >> >> doesn't >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> work in MXML. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> So of course it depends on to what extend you plan >>> to >>> > >> build >>> > >> > a >>> > >> > >> > Flex >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> client. Maybe just the SWF11 app converting to >>> MXML is >>> > an >>> > >> > >> option. >>> > >> > >> > >> But >>> > >> > >> > >> >> the >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> entire SWF8 app. I don't think so. Just too >>> complex. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> Sebastian >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> 2013/3/13 Alexei Fedotov <[email protected] >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> The files appear in some temporary directory. I >>> cannot >>> > >> > >> remember >>> > >> > >> > >> where >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> they are exactly. If you make an error when >>> embedding >>> > >> > action >>> > >> > >> > >> script >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> into openlaszlo (should be something on action >>> script >>> > >> > level, >>> > >> > >> xml >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> markup would break the preprocessor itself), you >>> get >>> > in >>> > >> the >>> > >> > >> > error >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> message an exact pointer to the file where your >>> error >>> > is >>> > >> > put. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> -- >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями, >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов, >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> http://dataved.ru/ >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> +7 916 562 8095 >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Maxim >>> Solodovnik < >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > @Alexey we currently using flex 4.5.0, 4.6.1 to >>> > create >>> > >> > >> > bytecode >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > "can be inspected/used" means autoconverted :) >>> > action >>> > >> > >> script >>> > >> > >> > >> instead >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> of >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > openlaszlo is also good :) >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > can you please tell me how this can be >>> inspected? >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > @Sebastian I thought we use only >>> > >> > >> view/label/dataset/connection >>> > >> > >> > >> in >>> > >> > >> > >> >> our >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> swf10 >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > code .... all these primitives should be >>> available >>> > in >>> > >> > MXML. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 2:52 PM, Alexei Fedotov >>> < >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> [email protected]> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > wrote: >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> @Max AS3 means action script >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> Modern OpenLaszlo compiles into AS3, these >>> files >>> > can >>> > >> be >>> > >> > >> > >> inspected >>> > >> > >> > >> >> and >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> used instead of openlaszlo files. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> Then standard Adobe tools create swf bytecode >>> from >>> > >> AS3. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> -- >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями, >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов, >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> http://dataved.ru/ >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> +7 916 562 8095 >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 11:18 AM, >>> > >> [email protected] >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > MXML has certainly advantages in the sense of >>> > wider >>> > >> > >> > >> acceptance >>> > >> > >> > >> >> and >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > better >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > development tools. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > But it really means to build something from >>> > >> scratch. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Sebastian >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > 2013/3/13 Maxim Solodovnik < >>> [email protected] >>> > > >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> @Alexey we currently using openlaszlo for >>> video >>> > >> (not >>> > >> > >> sure >>> > >> > >> > >> what >>> > >> > >> > >> >> do >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> you >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> mean >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> by AS3). Currently our version of video >>> > >> components is >>> > >> > >> > built >>> > >> > >> > >> >> using >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> flex.4.6.1 while actual version available >>> for >>> > >> > download >>> > >> > >> is >>> > >> > >> > >> flex >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> 4.9.1. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> I was hoping we will have less bugs and >>> better >>> > >> > >> performance >>> > >> > >> > >> if we >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> will >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> use >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> MXML directly for our code. But this is >>> just a >>> > >> guess. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 2:00 PM, >>> > >> > [email protected]< >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> [email protected]> wrote: >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> You can simply disable h264 and build to >>> swf11. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> It is only about the codec not about SWF >>> > formats. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> I just compared and could not really find >>> out >>> > if >>> > >> > there >>> > >> > >> > are >>> > >> > >> > >> big >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> differences. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> However it is definitly good to really >>> compare >>> > >> the >>> > >> > >> > impacts >>> > >> > >> > >> on >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> CPU and >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> bandwidth usage when switching the Codec >>> for >>> > >> video >>> > >> > >> > >> encoding. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> It seemed to me like encoding with h264 is >>> > using >>> > >> a >>> > >> > >> second >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> process (on >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> OSX >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> that process is called WindowsServer). It >>> might >>> > >> be >>> > >> > >> that >>> > >> > >> > >> h264 >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> encoding >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> can >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> use some more system ressources. >>> However... all >>> > >> just >>> > >> > >> > >> guessing >>> > >> > >> > >> >> at >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> this >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> point. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> Sebastian >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> 2013/3/13 Maxim Solodovnik < >>> > [email protected] >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> Maybe we can add conversion task to the >>> GSOC >>> > >> ideas? >>> > >> > >> do >>> > >> > >> > we >>> > >> > >> > >> need >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> it? >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> I don't see any problems with h264 >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> I'm going to build >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> 1) SWF11 with h264 support removed >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> 2) SWF11 with different h264 profile >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> 3) SWF10 >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> and compare >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> but i'm not expecting any major >>> differences :( >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 1:17 PM, >>> > >> > >> [email protected]< >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> No there is no such conversion. You have >>> to >>> > >> > rewrite >>> > >> > >> the >>> > >> > >> > >> LZX >>> > >> > >> > >> >> to >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> MXML >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> and >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> AS3 files. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> What about the Video Codec? I don't >>> think it >>> > >> makes >>> > >> > >> > sense >>> > >> > >> > >> to >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> start a >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> RC2 >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> vote before this issue has been further >>> > >> analyzed. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> Is there a given restriction that needs >>> h264? >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> Sebastian >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> 2013/3/13 Maxim Solodovnik < >>> > >> [email protected]> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> @Sebastian, maybe you know, is there any >>> > >> > >> possibility >>> > >> > >> > to >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> automatically/semi-automatically >>> convert our >>> > >> > swf10 >>> > >> > >> > >> sources >>> > >> > >> > >> >> to >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> "apache flex >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> xml"? Since Openlaszlo seems to be not >>> > >> actively >>> > >> > >> > >> developed >>> > >> > >> > >> >> and >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> flex >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> is now >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> part of Apache, maybe we can benefit >>> from >>> > such >>> > >> > >> > >> conversion? >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Maxim >>> > >> > Solodovnik < >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> I have forwarded all missing messages >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:25 PM, >>> > >> > >> > [email protected]< >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> you wrote me without CC'ing Irina or >>> the >>> > >> list >>> > >> > :) >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> I missed the 'reply all' button >>> somehow. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> Sebastian >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> 2013/3/12 Maxim Solodovnik < >>> > >> > [email protected] >>> > >> > >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> this one >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >>> > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OPENMEETINGS-559 >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> @Irina can you describe your problem >>> more >>> > >> > >> detailed? >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 3:46 PM, >>> > >> > >> > >> [email protected] < >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> We should simply do some tests to >>> > measure >>> > >> the >>> > >> > >> > actual >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> video with >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> h264 and the default Sorensen Codec. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Then we have some numbers. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> What are the exact reports for >>> "Flash >>> > >> Player >>> > >> > >> > >> crashing" ? >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Sebastian >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> 2013/3/12 Maxim Solodovnik < >>> > >> > >> [email protected]> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> I can add switching H264 off, but >>> I'm >>> > not >>> > >> > >> sure if >>> > >> > >> > >> this >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> is the >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> problem. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Most claims are related to the >>> crashing >>> > >> > flash >>> > >> > >> in >>> > >> > >> > >> >> browser. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Do you think this would help? >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 2:56 PM, >>> > >> > >> > >> [email protected]< >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry I did not meant default >>> h323 I >>> > >> meant >>> > >> > >> the >>> > >> > >> > >> default >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sorenson Spark >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> < >>> > >> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorenson_Spark >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >(Sorenson >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> H.263) >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sebastian >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> 2013/3/12 [email protected] < >>> > >> > >> > >> >> [email protected]> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> h264 simply needs more computing >>> time. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> AEC also is enabled (which needs >>> some >>> > >> > >> > percentages >>> > >> > >> > >> >> more >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> CPU >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> power then the previous >>> > >> implementation). >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Switching to later Flex SDK is >>> surely >>> > >> > >> desirable >>> > >> > >> > >> but >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> basically >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the performance is a Flash >>> > >> > >> > Player/VirtualMachine >>> > >> > >> > >> >> issue >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> not a >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Flash Compiler >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> issue. So as long as there is no >>> > Flash >>> > >> > >> Player >>> > >> > >> > 12 >>> > >> > >> > >> that >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> requires a later Flex >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> SDK it is unlikely that you will >>> gain >>> > >> > >> > performance >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> advantages. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I think there is a hardware >>> > >> acceleration >>> > >> > for >>> > >> > >> > >> playback >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> of >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> h264 >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> video, but I have really no idea >>> > about >>> > >> > >> > producing >>> > >> > >> > >> h264 >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> in the >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> browser in >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that context. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> From my point of view the main >>> reason >>> > >> for >>> > >> > >> using >>> > >> > >> > >> h264 >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> is the >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> SIP >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> integration. For users that >>> don't use >>> > >> SIP >>> > >> > >> > >> integration >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> using >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> h264 will >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> simply just mean an annoying CPU >>> > usage. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The case is different for AEC >>> from my >>> > >> > point >>> > >> > >> of >>> > >> > >> > >> view. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> AEC >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> brings >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> enhancement for everybody >>> > immediately. >>> > >> And >>> > >> > >> the >>> > >> > >> > >> more >>> > >> > >> > >> >> of >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> CPU >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that it uses is >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> only 3-4 % from my point of view. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> So my preference would be to >>> make the >>> > >> > video >>> > >> > >> > >> codec use >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> the >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> standard h323. To be honest: Who >>> has >>> > >> ever >>> > >> > >> > >> complained >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> in the >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> last couple of >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> years about video quality? The >>> > >> discussion >>> > >> > is >>> > >> > >> > >> almost >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> always >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> about audio >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> delay, audio quality, micro >>> echo, bad >>> > >> > >> > >> microphones et >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> cetera >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> but actually >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> never about video quality. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And from what I have seen h264 >>> also >>> > >> brings >>> > >> > >> no >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> improvements >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> terms of bandwidth usage. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> h264 could be available via >>> > >> configuration >>> > >> > >> (or >>> > >> > >> > to >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> enable SIP >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> integration), but h323 should be >>> used >>> > >> by >>> > >> > >> > default. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sebastian >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2013/3/12 Maxim Solodovnik < >>> > >> > >> > [email protected] >>> > >> > >> > >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello Raju, Sebastian, >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> according to >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >>> > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OPENMEETINGS-559and >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> various user reports (including >>> mail >>> > >> from >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> Sebastian[1]) >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Main code changes were: adding >>> > >> > >> > >> EnchancedMicrophone >>> > >> > >> > >> >> and >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> switch >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to h264 >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> According to the Google >>> switching to >>> > >> h264 >>> > >> > >> can >>> > >> > >> > >> cause >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> higher >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> CPU >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> usage. >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can this be fixed by changing >>> > >> H264Level? >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (currently H264Level.LEVEL_1_2 >>> is >>> > >> used) >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe you can us understand were >>> > >> > >> > >> >> performance/stability >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> degradation caused by code >>> changes? >>> > Or >>> > >> > >> maybe >>> > >> > >> > it >>> > >> > >> > >> is >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> because >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of Flex4.6.0? >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can stability be improved by >>> > >> switching to >>> > >> > >> > >> Flex4.9.1? >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks in advance for your help >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [1] >>> > >> > >> > >> http://markmail.org/message/2el63qarsjmbvfyy >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> < >>> > >> > >> > http://markmail.org/message/2el63qarsjmbvfyy >>> > >> > >> > >> >-- >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> WBR >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maxim aka solomax >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sebastian Wagner >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sebastian Wagner >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> WBR >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Maxim aka solomax >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Sebastian Wagner >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> -- >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> WBR >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Maxim aka solomax >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> -- >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> Sebastian Wagner >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> [email protected] >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> -- >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> WBR >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> Maxim aka solomax >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> -- >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> WBR >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> Maxim aka solomax >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> -- >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> Sebastian Wagner >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> [email protected] >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> -- >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> WBR >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> Maxim aka solomax >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> -- >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> Sebastian Wagner >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> http://www.webbase-design.de >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> [email protected] >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> -- >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> WBR >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> Maxim aka solomax >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > -- >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Sebastian Wagner >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > http://www.webbase-design.de >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > http://www.wagner-sebastian.com >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > [email protected] >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > -- >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > WBR >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > Maxim aka solomax >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> -- >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> Sebastian Wagner >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> http://www.webbase-design.de >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> [email protected] >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >> WBR >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >> Maxim aka solomax >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> >> > -- >>> > >> > >> > >> >> > Sebastian Wagner >>> > >> > >> > >> >> > https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock >>> > >> > >> > >> >> > http://www.webbase-design.de >>> > >> > >> > >> >> > http://www.wagner-sebastian.com >>> > >> > >> > >> >> > [email protected] >>> > >> > >> > >> >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >> -- >>> > >> > >> > >> >> WBR >>> > >> > >> > >> >> Maxim aka solomax >>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> > >> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> > > >>> > >> > >> > > >>> > >> > >> > > >>> > >> > >> > > -- >>> > >> > >> > > WBR >>> > >> > >> > > Maxim aka solomax >>> > >> > >> > > >>> > >> > >> > >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > -- >>> > >> > WBR >>> > >> > Maxim aka solomax >>> > >> > >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> -- >>> > >> Sebastian Wagner >>> > >> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock >>> > >> http://www.webbase-design.de >>> > >> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com >>> > >> [email protected] >>> > >> >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Sebastian Wagner >>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock >>> http://www.webbase-design.de >>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com >>> [email protected] >>> >> >>
