On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 3:08 PM, Matthew Toseland <t...@amphibian.dyndns.org> wrote: > On 29/03/14 15:26, > adilson_lanpo@8AEGotJKXJ4ABJy1gKjls4SrrzpshQNoEMAbu0IFA94 wrote: > >> On Sat, 29 Mar 2014 12:59:34 -0000 >> toad-notrust@h2RzPS4fEzP0zU43GAfEgxqK2Y55~kEUNR01cWvYApI wrote: >> >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 >>> >>> On 29/03/14 09:21, >>> adilson_lanpo@8AEGotJKXJ4ABJy1gKjls4SrrzpshQNoEMAbu0IFA94 wrote: >>>> There's also a good chance that computing power to run nodes >>>> may well be more expensive than the fee to join freenet >>>> (especially if it as low as $5 as proposed in the OP). >>> I very much doubt that this is the case. Computing power - CPU, >>> bandwidth, CAPTCHAs, IP addresses, geeks, etc - have significant >>> economies of scale, and are very cheap in bulk. Whereas the >>> costs scale linearly if you have a pay-per-join scheme. >> Of course that pay to join fee only needs to be paid once while >> bandwidth and electricity is a recurring expense (admittedly ones >> that will decline in cost over time as lines get upgraded and >> computers get more efficient). >> >> For running 10,000 nodes (order of magnitude of current opennet) >> would thus only cost $50,000 under a $5 to join fee system, petty >> cash for basically any intelligence agency or even many medium >> sized companies and organized crime can surely steal that if they >> want to attack us for some reason. > > It's within the budget of some university research projects even, > depending on what they hope to get out of it (e.g. there is some > really expensive equipment). But the big questions are: > 1) Is the cost per node greater than $5 (or what we could plausibly > ask of new users)? > 2) Do you need that many nodes? Can you just MAST? (See my other mail) > >>> Seriously, how many nodes can you run on one system? Especially >>> if you can centralise the datastores and so on. And how much does >>> it cost to buy *one* remote server with 1TB/mo transfer? >>> Computing power is *very* cheap. Very much cheaper than a $5 per >>> join fee for opennet IMHO, but if you want to look into the >>> numbers then please do. >> You could probably fit a few nodes on a multi-GHz core but will >> need some serious memory, say a half a Gig for each node (assuming >> a minimal Linux VM for each node), if we go with a 4 core system >> and 3 minimal nodes on each core that is 6 GiB RAM, that's >> something like a pretty normal desktop system today. > > Have you tried it? What you need for a node with WoT and Sone and > downloads is not the same as what you need for a node that's just > routing, and our CPU usage for just routing is relatively low. Also > there's some duplication. And on the subject of economies of scale, if > you have more nodes, you can 1) hire geeks to improve performance and > 2) have a large shared datastore across many nodes. > > Also, you don't need a VM for each node. You can quite happily run > them all on the same system image, even all in the same VM (which > makes sharing a datastore easier). > > And memory is cheap. > > My suspicion is with a little coding you could probably run 100 nodes > on one reasonably fast system, or a handful of them. Which is enough > to connect to every node on opennet right now. Sadly I don't have time > (or bandwidth) to try this, but if somebody wants to try that'd be a > good thing. > >> For 12 nodes I'm pretty sure it'll cost more than $5 per virtual >> node (can you buy quad core desktops for $60?). > > You can buy a reasonable server with 1TB/mo transfer for $70/mo IIRC, > but I don't recall where. Anyone? Of course they will prohibit p2p, > but whether they enforce this is less clear. And then there's > connectivity - I mentioned the cost of unique IP addresses in my other > mail. > > Partly it's a question of attacker modeling - do you want to > constantly monitor everyone forever? Do you want to avoid getting > caught at all costs? Do you know somebody's going to insert something > sensitive soon (say this month) and you just want to catch them? Or if > they will insert it in the very near future you could certainly use a > botnet - how long do they last anyway on average? > >> Using a bunch of R.Pi or similar may reduce costs though you won't >> be able to run as many nodes on them. > > It's probably more efficient to use "big" systems. > >> Being able to fit more nodes on a core may help reduce costs, >> though memory usage is then going to become your bottleneck. > > Memory is pretty cheap. > > I'd be very interested in any serious estimates as to cost.
https://www.digitalocean.com/pricing/ Try $10/mo for 2TB transfer. Root access - NO restrictions. 1 GB RAM, single core virtual server, 30 GB SSD drive. Could probably run 1 maybe 2 nodes per server. $ 20 / mo 2GB Memory 2 Core Processor 40GB SSD Disk 3TB Transfer $ 40 / mo 4GB Memory 2 Core Processor 60GB SSD Disk 4TB Transfer $ 80 / mo Maybe run 15+ nodes? assuming ~512MB RAM per node 8GB Memory 4 Core Processor 80GB SSD Disk 5TB Transfer So about $5-7 per node. Please use this link if anyone signs up so I get credit for a referral (this will help me keep running a seednode on this hosting provider) https://www.digitalocean.com/?refcode=45c6ec4f6e4c -- I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it. - Voltaire Those who would give up Liberty, to purchase temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. - Ben Franklin _______________________________________________ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
