On Friday, 2 February 2018 at 15:06:35 UTC, Benny wrote:

You want to produce Excel's? Excel-d but it faces the same issue as being the only native project. What if the author ...

Since you mention this, there isn't just single author of excel-d. If something happened to me, most likely Atila would want to and continue to be paid to work on it. If Atila decided he wanted to work from an office and write modern C++ instead of D (approximately snowball hell survival chance), we would certainly have someone else take over. And Ilya Yaroshenko understands at least enough of it to have made pull requests (and I imagine he understands it all rather well, but limiting myself to saying what I am certain of). It's also not rocket science, the Excel API, and Microsoft can't afford to move quickly and break the API given their user base.

What is D even targeting?

You’re attributing an intent and plan to a decentralised open source project. It doesn't work like that. It's like saying who should Britain target in trading post Brexit. There's no central plan, because in Britain we don't have central planning that much for such things. Who we end up trading with will be the result of many dispersed decisions made by people acting on the basis of local knowledge.

Well at least our Prime Minister can pretend that she is directing things in that way. Andrei and Walter can't order anyone to do anything, for the most part. They have significant influence, and can attract people to work on things but I don't see why you think there is a central plan for D.

These categories you mention, they don't capture real world organising principles from what I've seen. When you don't have an enormous market share it's pretty easy to grow it. You don't need to have a high appeal to everyone. You just have to have a high enough appeal to just incrementally more people wherever they may be found.

So it's not relevant whether most C++ developers are receptive to D or not (Ethan Watson says the games industry is an industry in search of salvation... from C++, and if every thing were hunky dory why the excitement about Jai, for example). You don't need to appeal to most people to grow, just a few more.

Read the Innovators Dilemma if you are serious about understanding how this works.

" It feels like D does not even know who its targeting."
How can it? Why should it? At this point all that's necessary is to do more of what's working, which is something that's happening with the passage of time. The way to grow is to appeal a bit more to your best customers or to those who are really close, using your for some things but are held back by some small impediments. For example Remedy Games with Quantum Break.

"In my opinion the focus
seems to be with C++ developers with most not giving a darn about D."

If most C++ developers were deeply familiar with D, it would be a very different conversation. Since this isn't the case, and given the number of people using C++, it's an advantage not a disadvantage what you point out. The job of an innovative challenger is long term an easier one. And strategically its by far the best if you get no respect until the last minute when it's too late for the challenger to respond. Strategically you want a growing number of people to be finding D useful, but most people to be dismissive. That happens to get the case though it was never planned.

Maybe D isn't for you right now. That's okay - come back in a bit and maybe you will feel differently. It doesn't need to appeal to everyone.

Other languages have slogans, they have selling points.

Yeah, and some people don't like slogans and aren't influenced by them or find them irritating. The unpolished aspect of the D world isn't a bad thing in this respect.

When i hear D, you hear ... ... ... ...

Advantages:

D has a lot of advantages like CTFE, Generics, betterC etc over Go. But the resources seem to be spread so much over so much code, that information about how to properly use those Technics is spread thin.

I skipped C++ because I didn't find it appealing when I learnt to program as a boy, and my career took me in a different direction. I picked up programming again in Dec 2013 after a very long break, and I didn't know what generics were (sort of, but I had never written them), the only metaprogramming I had done was in a Forth clone I wrote in the 80s, and so on. But if wasn't difficult to pick things up with D,and the documentation was worse then. I agree it could still be better, and better organised, but it's not that bad.

It makes D its learning curve also much higher.

Really? I found D easier to learn than Python (to be fair I already knew C well). I started out writing it like C and progressively adopted language features. I learnt from Stefan Koch and Adam Ruppe when they were helping me before, and I still learn from John Colvin, Atila, Jonathan Davis and Ilya about some more advanced language features, but I don't feel bad about not knowing them, and nor do I feel held back.

Your scorelist is a bit odd. You mention the importance of Windows to you. Does Crystal even work on Windows reliably yet? And then you talk about the need for being production ready and stable. You have a different perspective on what that means than me.

In any case Go looks like a nice language. I've thought about using it for us for devops type stuff when the alternatives are powershell, bash and Perl.

I don't see why the drama. D isn't right for you right now. No big deal, it's a big world, diversity is a good thing. One can't be all things to all people.

Out of interest, because it's sort of relevant, how many SLOC would you guess you have written in D?


The amount of issues that plague D go beyond the few i mentioned here and frankly will take years with a lot of manpower ( that D lacks ) to even sort out. I think D really missed the boat years ago because if it had a influx of people maybe 10 years ago, it will have been a whole different ballgame now.

Maybe. Things develop at their own pace, and can't be forced. I personally disagree because an influx of people before a language is ready for it can be a disaster. I wasn't around then but I read a fair number of old posts, and I don't think D was ready for it then.

Modern Western people are in so much of a hurry, but why? The stakes are so large it's better to get things right than do them quickly at any cost, which often means taking short cuts and mortgaging the future.

Things happen when the time is right and not before. A natural sequencing too. No point setting up a Foundation when there aren't enough corporate users ready to support the language. The time is right and you set up the Foundation - that's a lot of work and now you have to figure out a strategy. These things take time, but we have time.

Is Go perfect? Hell no ... but one needs to way the positive and negative. And to me it feels like Go has made more positive decisions that actually help people develop, then D on doing too much everywhere. Go is here to stay for the foreseeable future, where as D... not sure and that is scary.

They are just very different languages that serve different purposes. D isn't in general competing with Rust, any more than Go would have been a serious choice for Mozilla to write their browser engine in. For some things, sure, but the set of use cases for a general purpose language is enormous.

I don't think D is going to go anywhere but continuing to grow organically. Life is risk. Maybe we will have war with Russia. Or maybe rising rates will detonate the private market and big tech, with consequences for the market for programmers and some kinds of software. These things are possible too. I don't think D is going to drop off the face of the planet because quietly the use cases it serves very well are, quietly, growing rather quickly, and that's really all that matters in the bigger picture.


I am sure there will be lots of opinions regarding this post but its suffice to say that my decision to go with Go ( no pun intended ) is finally. I hope this final post is some indication of the issues that have plagued my decision process.

I hope it works out well for you. I'm sure it will.


Laeeth


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