Hi
David hits it right on the head. It is an extremely difficult thing
to do when you come over from Windows, but it really comes down to leaving
the entire mindset of JFW and Window-Eyes behind. VO simply does things
differently, and to start doing a side by side comparison is really not
going to be productive. As David said, there are places JFW and WE won't go
either.
There reality is that some folks design their websites with only
Windows and Internet Explorer in mind, and that is not the fault of VO or
Apple. I think you are going to see things change drastically in the coming
years, and not to keep repeating David, but this is the first version of VO.
I am a Window-Eyes user and still use my PC. However, my next desktop for my
office is going to be a Mac. It's as simple as that.
Take Care
John D. Panarese
Managing Director
Technologies for the Visually Impaired, Inc.
9 Nolan Court
Hauppauge, NY 11788
Tel/Fax, (631) 724-4479
Email, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Internet, http://www.tvi-web.com
AUTHORIZED DISTRIBUTORS FOR PORTSET SYSTEMS LTD, COMPSOLUTIONS VA, PREMIER
ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGIES, INDEX, PAPENMEIER, REPRO-TRONICS, PULSEDATA,
DUXBURY, DANCING DOTS, ROBOTRON, AND OTHER PRODUCTS FOR THE BLIND AND
VISUALLY IMPAIRED
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Poehlman
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 6:02 PM
To: General discussions on all topics relating to the use of Mac OS X by the
blind
Subject: Re: VO and web page access
Larry and all,
Jaws and window eyes are the standard for windows but access is what you
want and access is what you get with a mac. It's different, but it's
access. There are places where window eyes and jaws won't go and just
because the Mac doesn't have all those fancy keystrokes, doesn't mean that
it cannot go where they can. There are sites which are designed with
windows in mind and you will find them difficult at best and impossible at
worse to deal with on the Mac. I'm not certain that this is the case with
this particular site, but I did say we are in VO v1.0 right? Not only are
we in VO 1.0, but safari is also improving with each new itteration and
sites which were not
accessible at all like bofa for instance, before, are now usable.
This is also due in part to work on the bank's part. I have not found a
site which if I cannot access it that I absolutely cannot live without
because there is always something else out there to go to. Nonetheless,
dropping a note to [EMAIL PROTECTED] on your findings can't hurt.
The difference between the windows screen readers and the access we have
with vo is frills basically. I remember the days of dos, I remember the
days of windows 3.11, 95... The folk at apple designed Tiger with
accessibility right there in the mix along with everything else. You are
not being criticized at all for your stand or your thoughts or what you
write. I use jaws. I used jaws for many years and even expressed my doubts
about Mac accessibility before VO's development was announced to the world
but here I am using the Mac for all of my tasks which do not absolutely
require windows. I still use windows when I don't have my Mac handy or when
I am just sitting near one. We've got three pcs here and only one Mac so
far but that
is due to change soon. I'm not putting JAWS or window eyes down.
They are great products for windows which is why VO can be even better. I
did not get anywhere with Tiger till I laid jaws aside.
--
Jonnie Apple Seed
With his:
Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
On Dec 20, 2005, at 5:21 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
"First though, jaws is out. If you keep trying to hold jaws up as
your benchmark, you'll not only not go where you need to go but
you'll be tripping over your teeth not getting there. There is a lot
you can do with VO, There are some things that are possible but more
complex, but by and large, we come out even or better as far as
access goes."
Hi,
I appreciate that those of you using Mac by and large have a belief,
and rightfully so, that you are using a better computer than a
Windows box. However, you must understand that access to computer
applications and the web is just that, access. Be it a Mac or a PC,
that is a basic requirement for those of us who are vision impaired.
When it comes down to that issue, if your using a Mac or PC it just
doesn't matter, you need access. Therefore, while Jaws runs on a PC
and VO on a Mac, comparisons as to how accessible things are are
rightful and that's what it comes down to in the end. I don't debate
the quality and idea that a Mac is better. However, like it or not,
Jaws and Window Eyes are the standard and benchmark for blind access
to the computer. So, I feel I'm right in comparing them. How does
weighing the accessibility I had with Jaws verses the accessibility I
have with VO cause problems and how is that going to trip me up.
Jaws gave me greater access than what I'm getting with VO. Now, I'm
learning about VO and maybe I get to a point where this isn't an
issue but I strongly disagree with your suggestion here that
comparing the accessibility one achieves from one product or the
other is somehow problematic. If I'm entering the market for a
computer its probably near the top of the list for me if I'm blind.
I've got to be sure that I can access the applications that I need.
If I feel that Jaws gives me more access I may go that rout but I bet
most people when it comes down to it would admit that how accessible
the screen reader makes things is a huge part of the decision. I'd
like to be able to ask for help and info here without being
criticized because I compare my accessibility experiences. Its part
of it!!!
Thanks, Larry
>
> From: David Poehlman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 2005/12/20 Tue PM 04:18:40 EST
> To: General discussions on all topics relating to the use of Mac OS
> X by the
> blind <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: VO and web page access
>
> Hi all,
>
> The below message poses some interesting questions and I'll answer
> them from the perspective that we are at vo v1.0.
>
> First though, jaws is out. If you keep trying to hold jaws up as
> your benchmark, you'll not only not go where you need to go but
> you'll be tripping over your teeth not getting there. There is a lot
> you can do with VO, There are some things that are possible but more
> complex, but by and large, we come out even or better as far as
> access goes.
>
> Your link has some issues that jaws and ie hide quite well and yes,
> the issues are real and it looks like VO is at fault but for the fact
> that it does quite a bit of the web well. One thing that can help is
> to turn off cursor tracking with vokeys-shift-f3. You can also try
> building links lists using vo keys with u and element lists with vo
> keys-i. In these lists, you can cruise or type ahead. As you type,
> the lists shorten and if your string is unique enough, you end up
> with one link on which you press space and away you go. It gets
> faster and easier with a bit of practice.
>
> On your bofa site issue, I use it too and have not seen this issue.
> I do see an issue where you type in an amount and have to wait a bit
> to tab till the date field comes up but that is due to page
> processing not VO. You can mittigate this to some degree by using vo
> keys with arrows and going to the date field, selecting the date,
> then typing the amount in the amount field. The orientation is
> different, but it works well and becomes easy.
>
> I don't do computer digital audio but I know there's been a good deal
> of discussion of it on the list and perhaps if you sent three
> messages, one for each topic, folk would find it easier to respond.
>
> All the best.
>
> --
> Jonnie Apple Seed
> With his:
> Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
>
>
> On Dec 20, 2005, at 12:54 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I just wanted to share some observations/concerns about VO
> accessibility on the web that I've noticed in hopes that someone else
> can check some of this out and see what they end up with.
>
> My biggest concern when buying the Mac was in fact web access. I'm
> on the web a lot so it was important to me. Unfortunately, I've
> noticed a few issues. If you go over to www.ilounge.com, you will
> find that it appears to be a page with frames. It has a top frame
> with all kinds of links in it and then a great many links down the
> left side of the page. Finally, there is a large frame in the middle
> where text and news headlines are and finally a smaller frame with
> advertisements over on the right. It appears to be somewhat a
> complex page. When I was working with Jaws on the PC I could easily
> move from one frame to the next on pages. Unfortunately, if I move
> to interact with the HTML content and start moving with VO keys and
> the arrows, it doesn't seem that I can make it out of the top frame
> of the page. I think the last link I hear is RSS and then if I arrow
> right or down again I hear nothing. After a second or two it jumps
> down to the bottom of the page and reads the legal stuff like Apple
> and iPod are property of Macintosh or whatever. Any ideas on how I
> can improve my ability to interact with this page?
>
> Second, I bank with Bank of America and do everything on
> www.bankofamerica.com. For the most part I do all right with it.
> However, two issues here. Once I'm logged in and using my account I
> run in to some difficulties. One of them is that the site is
> designed to be very user friendly for screen readers and contains
> links that say skip to main content or to skip past this section.
> The links you would be skipping run down the left side of the page
> and are announcements, links to banking options and things like
> that. I know, I'm about to reference back to Jaws again but its what
> I knew and was most comfortable with. In Jaws I could click one of
> these skip to links and jump on to the next section of the page.
> However, nose such luck in VO. I'm unsure of what the problem is but
> when I select one of these links nothing at all happens. The focus
> doesn't move to the main content or even from that link. Any ideas?
>
> The other difficulty I have with that same page is when I pay my
> bills online. I get a page with all of my payees on it and can enter
> amounts and the date to pay them. When I enter the amount to pay by
> typing in to the appropriate field and go to leave the field, rather
> than continuing on from that point, VO seems to go back to the first
> link on the page. I'd rather have it keep going forward from that
> very same spot and not need to start over at the top of the page.
> I'm less than thrilled at navigation on the web with VO and this just
> complicates things. Thoughts and suggestions welcome.
>
> Finally, just curious if anyone uses a mail program that is simpler
> than the one that comes as part of OSX.
>
> Oh and I wonder if anyone has suggestions on a program to use to get
> album art for all of my music. I have a massive music library and
> have just enough vision to do some things in iTunes but all of the
> CD's I've burned do not have album art.
>
> Thanks.> > --
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
