Good email. This one won't be that good. Boiling my verbose email down to two sentences:
We seem to already have a private group of people who make decisions in secret and pronounce a verdict on issues, and who can to a large extent control the community. If this is the case, and they already have total control should they choose to exercise it, a Django ASBO won't give any extra power over - and thus protection against - griefers/bullies/whatever. Just to hedge my bets, if the group does decide to create the ASBO, could it be called the Anti-Social Django Act? On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 7:33 AM, Benjamin Scherrey <proteus...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Kevin, > > And thanx for responding to my question about the need for such a > policy with Django. Last night, as I had not yet had a response from anyone > about this question I searched the archives of both django groups looking > for any events or circumstances in which the code of conduct was invoked as > I had no personal recollection of any such thing. I found some innocuous > reference in the django-users group (wrongly suggesting that this coming > policy was going to increase female participation) and in > django-developers, one actual circumstance where its use was threatened - > not surprisingly as part of the one example you provided that actually has > anything to do at all with the Django community. Sadly, it's invocation was > precisely used in the manner that I had feared - to stifle debate and > threaten a person who was making valid and reasonable arguments (no doubt > in the middle of a flame war but he/she wasn't the flamer). When I saw the > name of the person who invoked the code of conduct I was even more > disappointed as it was someone that I otherwise have a profound respect for. > > Other than this I was not surprised to see zero evidence for the need > for such a policy as there don't seem to be any threatening events of the > like that your email raises. These problems may exist elsewhere but not > amongst the general django community that I've ever seen. > > Understand my background. I own a software development company that > was a VERY early adopter of Django way before the 1.0 days. I expect I was > certainly one of the first thousand developers to use Django in a real-life > situation once it got outside of the newspaper where it was created. My > company is one of the first to build commercial systems for clients on top > of Django. My staff even has a few little commits into the django code base > over the years, although minor, but we were proud nonetheless to be able to > contribute in some small way. I've attended my share of PyCons (prior to > the invention of DjangoCon which I hope to attend one day) and have always > found the community very open and inclusive of all types. This is a Good > Thing (TM). I've even sent 5 staff to the event, four of which happened to > be women. My team now consists of 34+ people, all but two of which are in a > technical capacity. WE are geeks who seek out other geeks who want to be > appreciated solely based on merit. We happen to have about a 40% female > colleague share and explicitly do NOT have a diversity policy (nor will we > ever have an HR department but that's another story). I simply am strong at > identifying and attracting people with strong potential and the market is > so extremely competitive that one must leave no stone unturned in order to > find the best. THAT is the one way that a more inclusive group will come > into being and for the right reasons. > > So I have actually achieved what everyone is crying out for and can't > seem to figure how to accomplish. It wasn't difficult. I'm here to tell you > that diversity policies and codes of conduct, in my experience consulting > to dozens of commercial, government, and educational organizations in my > 30+ years of experience have never once helped achieve their stated goals > and, many times, have hurt both the organization and it's intended > beneficiaries. True to my experience, the one threatened invocation of the > code of conduct for Django fits right in line with my experience of such > policies, sadly. > > Therefore, I hope everyone appreciates that I'm fully invested in > Django and attracting the best & brightest into our community. I think > you'll see Kevin, that I supported your first PR but have very grave > concerns about the second for the reasons I've already gone into great > detail about. I do believe completely that both were put forward with good > intentions. I'm all for policies that put forward good examples of > appreciated behavior and add to the general sense of inclusiveness which I > think your first one does. It scares the hell out of me when people start > enumerating banned conduct and speech - and I wish more people understood > the issue as well as I about why. That's why I'm quite vocal about this. > > Thanx for your time and interest, > > -- Ben Scherrey > > On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 9:45 AM, Kevin Daum <kevin.d...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Thanks Russ, I assumed as much, having read >> https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/changes/. >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> Perhaps Daniele's keynote talk at Djangocon this year, combined with the >> already very good Django code of conduct, caused me to assume too much of >> this community's progression towards appreciating both the need of >> diversity in tech and the actual conditions required to bring that about. >> >> Benjamin, you asked if there is an actual problem that needs solving. >> Yes. Absolutely. It is a systemic one within the world of software >> development and I am excited to be a part of a particular software >> development community that is taking proactive steps towards the goal of a >> safe, supportive environment for *everyone *who is working towards that >> same goal. The quality of our software will reflect the quality of our >> community. Here is just a tiny sample of reading for any who are interested >> in learning why these kinds of policies are so important: >> >> >> 1. See the recent case of Anita Sarkeesian, which is one sort of >> situation I have in mind when writing down a policy such as this: >> https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/504718160902492160/photo/1 >> >> >> http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/08/29/gaming-vlogger-anita-sarkeesian-is-forced-from-home-after-receiving-harrowing-death-threats/ >> 2. http://modelviewculture.com/pieces/abuse-as-ddos, including this >> bit: "Just like with computer security, you should have plans in place to >> identify and address attacks. At conferences, user groups, and other >> events, this can take the form of a code of conduct along with a policy >> for >> enforcement. In workplaces, this often takes the form of an employee >> handbook. These types of policies help mitigate attacks when they happen, >> so that decisions don’t have to be made on the fly when something goes >> wrong. These policies are far from perfect fixes for everything, but >> they’re better than doing nothing." >> 3. http://modelviewculture.com/pieces/the-open-source-identity-crisis. >> By the way, I'm proud that the one time this author links to something >> django-related, it's this situation >> >> <http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Django_primary-replica_terminology_patch_dispute> >> in which the core devs wisely and quickly made the right choice. >> >> >> >> >> On Monday, September 8, 2014 9:37:16 PM UTC-4, Russell Keith-Magee wrote: >>> >>> Hi Kevin, >>> >>> Thanks for these suggestions. >>> >>> By way of settings expectations - a patch of this nature has a little >>> more procedural overhead than a normal patch, because it requires a change >>> to our community policies. Regardless of the merit (or otherwise) of a >>> specific proposal, a change to these policies needs to be ratified by the >>> core team and the DSF membership before it goes into effect. >>> >>> Discussions on the ticket itself from people outside those groups is >>> definitely welcome - the broader opinion and attitudes of the community >>> will be considered as part of the ratification process. But it's not >>> something that a small group of people can quickly agree on and commit. >>> >>> Russ %-) >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Sep 7, 2014 at 9:10 AM, Kevin Daum <kevin...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I have submitted two pull requests for the code of conduct: >>>> >>>> - #84 <https://github.com/django/djangoproject.com/pull/84>, to let >>>> folks who belong to a wide variety of social identities know that yes, >>>> even >>>> they are welcome here, and >>>> - #86 <https://github.com/django/djangoproject.com/pull/86>, to >>>> make explicit the currently implicit policy that someone's abusive >>>> behavior >>>> outside the django community *may* have an adverse effect on their >>>> ability to participate within the django community. >>>> >>>> I welcome your feedback. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Kevin Daum >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Django developers" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to django-develop...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to django-d...@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers. >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/ >>>> msgid/django-developers/0633ea6c-c973-4cb0-bf94- >>>> 60d045c608ea%40googlegroups.com >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/0633ea6c-c973-4cb0-bf94-60d045c608ea%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>> . >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Django developers" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/8511aebc-fef2-462c-90f4-92d6ad3337f0%40googlegroups.com >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/8511aebc-fef2-462c-90f4-92d6ad3337f0%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > > > -- > Chief Systems Architect Proteus Technologies <http://proteus-tech.com> > Chief Fan Biggest Fan Productions <http://biggestfan.net> > Personal blog where I am not your demographic > <http://notyourdemographic.com>. > > This email intended solely for those who have received it. If you have > received this email by accident - well lucky you!! > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "Django developers" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/django-developers/SXav1z5Qdyk/unsubscribe > . > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CAHN%3D9D7kRZVOWs23xH2%3D2eUOcu6kOnGwZxOHorG1ZQuxZvqibA%40mail.gmail.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CAHN%3D9D7kRZVOWs23xH2%3D2eUOcu6kOnGwZxOHorG1ZQuxZvqibA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. 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