On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 5:43 AM, Audrey Roy Greenfeld <audr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, September 9, 2014 3:07:57 PM UTC-7, Benjamin Scherrey wrote: >> >> >> I'm curious to know - exactly what are the goals that people expect >> from a speech and conduct code? Does anyone for this actually think that >> such a policy is going to achieve these goals and do so without causing >> more harm than good? >> > > I actually do think that more good than harm can come from this :) > Thinking and wishing do not constitute support for a position, especially when evidence to the contrary have already been presented. I checked the diff of #86. It is no different other than adding the DSF's > opinion a bit more explicitly. It says "may affect," which is an opinion. > There might be better ways to word it, and the CoC might need a bit of > refactoring because #86 brings in some overlapping opinion, but the overall > intent is good. > Again no one is arguing with the presumed intent. It is the unintended consequences that are of concern. I'm glad you agree that it needs "refactoring" but no such modifications that resolve these concerns come to my mind. I welcome any efforts. > > As a longtime free speech advocate, I also see no formal restrictions > imposed upon my rights by the specific words in #86. > That's because they're not formal, they are implied and very real as the situation has already happened the one and only time the policy has been invoked by TPTB. Does this bother no one but me? As a free speech advocate one should recognize that no one has the right to not be offended as people choose what does and does not offend them. An affirmative policy works best in preventing the initiation of behavior or speech that does not attempt to be beneficial to the community as a whole. That is ultimately the best that can be achieved through policy and a worthy goal. > > >> I believe, when thoughtfully considered and viewing the evidence that is >> publicly available to all, that they must fail. Is that not a very simple >> burden of evidence that any such policy should have to over come before >> being adopted? >> > > There is enough evidence. There have sadly been serious incidents in our > community that have not been reported formally out of fear. Improving the > CoC to better address the problem is certainly worthwhile. It may be > impossible to eliminate serious incidents entirely, but at least we can try > our best. > I'm sorry but this is not evidence, it is hearsay or, at best, conjecture. It cannot be debated and determined what, if any policy, could have had a positive impact in either preventing the incident or improving its outcome ex-post-facto. I've asked for such evidence and received exactly none. Nothing is preventing anyone from providing documentation of such specific incidences which could easily have names modified to protect those involved. I would argue any changes to a CoC should have a reasonable and justifiable (through evidence) expectation of benefit without causing harm. I have made an evidence-backed case that #86 fails on this point. No one has done the contrary. -- Ben > > Audrey > > > >> >> On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 2:51 AM, James Bennett <ubern...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> I have been involved in building and participating in and running >>> technically-oriented groups for fifteen years. I've seen a lot of stuff. >>> >>> The most common problem pattern I have seen is the "I'm not touching >>> you" game. To understand what this means, imagine parents driving a car, >>> with two children in the back seat. Child A keeps poking Child B, so the >>> parents instruct Child A to stop touching Child B. A few moments later, >>> things resume, but now Child A says "I didn't touch him, the sleeve of my >>> shirt touched him, you didn't say the sleeve of my shirt couldn't touch >>> him". And away we go as Child A comes up with ever more convoluted >>> technicalities to try to keep harassing Child B while still claiming it >>> "wasn't against the rules". >>> >>> The "I'm not touching you" game is also a favorite of many types of >>> people on the internet. Avoiding it requires policies which contain both >>> affirmative and negative statements (i.e., lists of things >>> encouraged/expected, lists of things forbidden) as well as a certain amount >>> of discretion -- even, dare I say, a vague but probably large amount -- to >>> be left in the hands of whichever person or persons will be responsible for >>> enforcement, so that we don't end up playing "I'm not touching you" until >>> the end of time. That little bit of discretion to step outside the stark >>> technicalities and just bluntly deal with such people makes, in my >>> experience at least, all the difference between a workable and an >>> unworkable policy. >>> >>> So those are things that need to be in our CoC. If they make you >>> uncomfortable, if you don't trust the leaders of this community to handle >>> things fairly and responsibly, if you are chilled, silenced and terrified >>> byt the idea that harassing behavior would result in ostracism from the >>> Django community, then perhaps the Django community is simply not the place >>> for you, because the kind of community we want to have and the kind of >>> community you want to have may not be compatible. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Django developers" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to django-develop...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to django-d...@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/ >>> msgid/django-developers/CAL13Cg9k1U6QA8dD3crFh% >>> 3D4JvpiDv19WLCUnOJ997DywAdjdCg%40mail.gmail.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CAL13Cg9k1U6QA8dD3crFh%3D4JvpiDv19WLCUnOJ997DywAdjdCg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Chief Systems Architect Proteus Technologies <http://proteus-tech.com> >> Chief Fan Biggest Fan Productions <http://biggestfan.net> >> Personal blog where I am not your demographic >> <http://notyourdemographic.com>. >> >> This email intended solely for those who have received it. If you have >> received this email by accident - well lucky you!! >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Django developers" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/0cc7b2d8-e0cc-4429-8f4a-a504ce485997%40googlegroups.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/0cc7b2d8-e0cc-4429-8f4a-a504ce485997%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- Chief Systems Architect Proteus Technologies <http://proteus-tech.com> Chief Fan Biggest Fan Productions <http://biggestfan.net> Personal blog where I am not your demographic <http://notyourdemographic.com>. This email intended solely for those who have received it. If you have received this email by accident - well lucky you!! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CAHN%3D9D5G6VLxiQFojrsy%2BuB8t72ueVpFeYe%2B3oYHGHQtTTWuaA%40mail.gmail.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
