James,
I'm completely aware of the kind of situation you're describing in some
technical communities. I also don't find any evidence of it whatsoever in
ours, as I've pointed out repeatedly and have repeatedly asked for evidence
of by those who think a speech and behavior code is justifiable. So far
none has been forthcoming. You then ask "if you don't trust the leaders of
this community to handle things fairly and responsibly" well my friend,
that has already happened as I described before in this community. So you
seem focused on the theoretical while I'm far more interested in what has
actually happened.
I'm curious to know - exactly what are the goals that people expect from
a speech and conduct code? Does anyone for this actually think that such a
policy is going to achieve these goals and do so without causing more harm
than good? I believe, when thoughtfully considered and viewing the evidence
that is publicly available to all, that they must fail. Is that not a very
simple burden of evidence that any such policy should have to over come
before being adopted? I should hope so and, thus far, all those supporting
have completely ignored the downside and have provided no evidence
supporting the need for one in our community. Other communities, perhaps,
but then I don't participate in those. I like the think that the Django
community, far before the existence of any such policy and continuing
today, is already beyond the "I'm not touching you game". Don't break what
doesn't need fixing. We really should apply a "first do no harm" test
against any such policies designed to control people's behavior and speech
- especially when we have the hubris to then attempt to impose such
policies outside the context of Django which is exactly what the 2nd PR
does.
This last bit, however, "if you are chilled, silenced and terrified by
the idea that harassing behavior would result in ostracism from the Django
community" I'm afraid is personally insulting and distasteful. No one,
especially me, has made any argument of the sort and it's an attempt to say
"if you're against the code then you must be for that kind of behavior". My
position is, as I'm sure people are tired of by now, very well documented.
It's not the intention of the policy that concerns me, it is the (again
documented) abuse of such that I have a very big problem with. And you seem
to be perfectly willing to drop myself, and others who are very much
invested in Django from the community for disagreeing and I find that
rather sad. I expect you have no idea who I am but I have followed you for
some time and my opinion of you has, thus far, been much higher than that.
thanx,
-- Ben Scherrey
On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 2:51 AM, James Bennett <ubernost...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> I have been involved in building and participating in and running
> technically-oriented groups for fifteen years. I've seen a lot of stuff.
>
> The most common problem pattern I have seen is the "I'm not touching you"
> game. To understand what this means, imagine parents driving a car, with
> two children in the back seat. Child A keeps poking Child B, so the parents
> instruct Child A to stop touching Child B. A few moments later, things
> resume, but now Child A says "I didn't touch him, the sleeve of my shirt
> touched him, you didn't say the sleeve of my shirt couldn't touch him". And
> away we go as Child A comes up with ever more convoluted technicalities to
> try to keep harassing Child B while still claiming it "wasn't against the
> rules".
>
> The "I'm not touching you" game is also a favorite of many types of people
> on the internet. Avoiding it requires policies which contain both
> affirmative and negative statements (i.e., lists of things
> encouraged/expected, lists of things forbidden) as well as a certain amount
> of discretion -- even, dare I say, a vague but probably large amount -- to
> be left in the hands of whichever person or persons will be responsible for
> enforcement, so that we don't end up playing "I'm not touching you" until
> the end of time. That little bit of discretion to step outside the stark
> technicalities and just bluntly deal with such people makes, in my
> experience at least, all the difference between a workable and an
> unworkable policy.
>
> So those are things that need to be in our CoC. If they make you
> uncomfortable, if you don't trust the leaders of this community to handle
> things fairly and responsibly, if you are chilled, silenced and terrified
> byt the idea that harassing behavior would result in ostracism from the
> Django community, then perhaps the Django community is simply not the place
> for you, because the kind of community we want to have and the kind of
> community you want to have may not be compatible.
>
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