Here's another aspect of this topic that I think is important to consider: Is homosexuality among females the same phenomenon as homosexuality among males? Are they caused by the same or similar mechanisms? If they have any effect on group fitness, is it the same effect? From what I've heard, their percentage representation is the population is NOT equal. Why would that be?
Martin 2013/3/28 Patrick Mears <patrickame...@gmail.com> > While reading through this topic I thought of a question that might be > worth thinking about. > > 1. Is attraction to a specific gender (regardless of an individuals > gender) a heritable trait? > > Just a thought. > > Patrick Mears > > On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 12:42 PM, Martin Meiss <mme...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Here are what I see as some problems with the idea that homosexuality in >> humans is rooted in the genetics of kin selection, as proposed earlier in >> this thread. >> >> 1. Suppose an individual is born with a mutation that makes him/her >> inclined to homosexuality and to avoid reproduction. If this individual >> then "helps around the nest" he/she may enhance the survival of near >> relatives WHO DO NOT BEAR THE GENE, since the mutation is new. How would >> this mutation enter the population? >> >> 2. Insofar as the kin-selection mechanism requires restricted gene flow, >> how can we assume that this condition prevailed for our wondering, >> hunter-gatherer ancestors? Wondering groups don't have to be in contact >> very long to exchange mates or rape each other. >> >> 3. It's not clear that an individual's personal inclination to engage in >> mating behavior would have much to do with whether they actually mated. I >> refer, of course, to rape, but also other forms of social persuasion. >> Also, just because a few males in the group may prefer each other to >> females, that doesn't mean the remaining males couldn't keep all the >> females pregnant, thus favoring their genes over the non-players. >> >> 4. The hypothesis, as presented in this thread, seems to rely on early >> populations having been resource-limited, so they would benefit from >> decreasing the number of mouths to feed. But isn't it also possible that >> they were NOT resource limited. If migratory groups were expanding into >> new territory, they might have faced abundance of resources, especially as >> their tools and weapons made more things available to them. Also, given >> the defenselessness of naked humans or pre-humans when unarmed, and the >> dangers of hunting nasty animals when armed, it is quite possible that >> those early populations were limited by predation and traumatic injury. >> In >> that case, limiting reproductive output would seem to be very unfavorable. >> >> I realize that some of these hypothetical conditions, if they obtained, >> might tend to contradict each other, or cancel each other out, but I >> nevertheless believe they indicate against ready acceptance of the >> kin-selection mechanism. >> >> Martin M. Meiss >> >> 2013/3/28 Mitch Cruzan <cru...@pdx.edu> >> >> > This neglects that fact that homosexuality is not an accident of history >> > or just a artifact of modern human societies. This trait is too >> widespread >> > and occurs at too high a frequency in human populations to be explained >> by >> > chance - there must have been a selective advantage in the past. The >> > widespread nature of this trait across human populations suggests that >> it >> > must have been present in the human lineage by at least the time of the >> > second major migration of hominids out of Africa around 60,000 ybp. The >> > inclusive fitness argument mentioned several times by contributors to >> this >> > listserve is probably the best explanation for the maintenance of >> > homosexuality in human populations. >> > >> > Mitch Cruzan >> > >> > >> > On 3/28/2013 7:46 AM, Culliney, Thomas W - APHIS wrote: >> > >> >> I was referring to strict homosexuality in humans. Granted, there >> >> probably are cases in which children of a (perhaps deceased) sibling or >> >> other close relative would be raised by a homosexual, thus raising his >> or >> >> her inclusive fitness, but such cases would be rare. The Darwinian >> fitness >> >> of a strict homosexual is, as a rule, zero. Helpers at the nest do >> forgo >> >> their own reproduction to help relatives raise offspring, but, as far >> as I >> >> know, there is no requirement for them to be homosexual. >> >> >> >> Tom Culliney >> >> >> >> From: Jonathan Colburn [mailto:col...@gmail.com] >> >> Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 10:05 AM >> >> To: Culliney, Thomas W - APHIS >> >> Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Exclusive homosexuality >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi Tom, >> >> >> >> Respectfully, the Darwinian fitness sounds like inclusive fitness, >> which >> >> is often measured by reproductive success. However, reproductive >> success >> >> of a homosexual is not always a good measure of their inclusive fitness >> >> (e.g. helpers at the nest). Ultimately, any action that staves off >> >> fixation of alleles to zero is about as close as we can come to >> determining >> >> that something is inclusively fit... >> >> On Mar 28, 2013 9:20 AM, "Culliney, Thomas W - APHIS" < >> >> thomas.w.culli...@aphis.usda.**gov <thomas.w.culli...@aphis.usda.gov> >> >> <mailto:Thomas.W.Culliney@**aphis.usda.gov< >> thomas.w.culli...@aphis.usda.gov>>> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> I note that the albatross article mentioned the words "natural" and >> >> "normal." Homosexuality certainly is natural, as it occurs in nature, >> in >> >> animals from groups ranging from arthropods to mammals (who knows what >> goes >> >> on in the plant kingdom?). In all cases, there appears to be an >> adaptive >> >> reason for the behavior. However, in its reproductive consequences, >> >> exclusive or strict homosexuality, as exhibited in humans, cannot be >> >> considered normal sexual behavior. The Darwinian fitness of >> homosexuals is >> >> zero. To the extent that there is a genetic component to the behavior >> in >> >> humans, with their diverse sexuality, the trait undoubtedly persists >> in the >> >> population largely through the actions of bisexual individuals leading >> to >> >> the production of offspring. >> >> >> >> The above is an argument strictly from a biological perspective, and is >> >> not a moral judgment. What two consenting adults do in private is >> their own >> >> business and no one else's. >> >> >> >> Tom Culliney >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [mailto: >> >> ecolo...@listserv.umd.**EDU <ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU><mailto: >> >> ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.**UMD.EDU <ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU>>] On Behalf Of >> >> Kristen Dybala >> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 10:55 PM >> >> To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU<**mailto:ecolo...@listserv.umd.**EDU< >> ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU> >> >> > >> >> Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Expedition notice and question >> >> >> >> Laysan albatrosses are a fairly well-known example. Here's a (lengthy) >> >> article describing it: >> >> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/**04/04/magazine/04animals-t.** >> >> html?pagewanted=all< >> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/04/magazine/04animals-t.html?pagewanted=all >> > >> >> >> >> >> -Kristen >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Merav Vonshak <merav...@gmail.com >> >> <mailto:mer**av...@gmail.com <merav...@gmail.com>>> wrote: >> >> >> >> This story reminds me of a similar story - a male pair of Griffon >> >>> vultures (Gyps fulvus). They incubated eggs and reared other pairs' >> >>> youngs as part of a breeding in captivity effort in Israel some years >> >>> ago. >> >>> Merav >> >>> >> >>> Merav Vonshak >> >>> Postdoctoral Fellow >> >>> Gordon Laboratory >> >>> Department of Biology >> >>> Stanford University >> >>> Stanford, CA 94305-5020 >> >>> >> >>> Phone: 650-725-6791<tel:650-725-6791> >> >>> email: mvons...@stanford.edu<mailto:m**vons...@stanford.edu< >> mvons...@stanford.edu> >> >>> > >> >>> http://www.stanford.edu/~**mvonshak < >> http://www.stanford.edu/~mvonshak> >> >> >>> >> >>> On 27, Mar2013, at 12:08 PM, Montblanc, Genie wrote: >> >>> >> >>> WT, >> >>>> >> >>>> Since I don't study this, I'm giving a, "What I've heard in the >> news," >> >>>> >> >>> response. There were two stories awhile back, both relating to >> >>> animals in captivity, about homosexual pair bonding. One was with >> >>> penguins, I think they also raised a chick together, and the other was >> >>> with dolphins. Given that long-term pair bonding only occurs in 8-11 >> >>> species in the entire animal kingdom, the question might be moot >> anyway. >> >>> >> >>>> That is my inexpert response. Have a great expedition! >> >>>> Génie >> >>>> >> >>>> Eugénie MontBlanc >> >>>> Great Basin Fire Science Delivery Coordinator University of >> >>>> Nevada/Mail Stop 0186, Reno, NV 89557 >> >>>> Phone: 775-784-1107<tel:775-784-1107> (Fax: -1109) >> >>>> Email: e...@cabnr.unr.edu<mailto:emb@**cabnr.unr.edu < >> e...@cabnr.unr.edu> >> >>>> > >> >>>> Web: www.gbfiresci.org<http://www.**gbfiresci.org< >> http://www.gbfiresci.org> >> >> >>>> > >> >>>> Twitter: @GBfirescience >> >>>> >> >>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>> From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [mailto: >> >>>> >> >>> ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU<**mailto:ecolo...@listserv.umd.**EDU< >> ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU>>] >> >> >>> On Behalf Of Wayne Tyson >> >>> >> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 10:32 AM >> >>>> To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU<**mailto:ecolo...@listserv.umd.**EDU< >> ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU> >> >> >>>> > >> >>>> Subject: [ECOLOG-L] Expedition notice and question >> >>>> >> >>>> [NOTE:] I will be on expedition (with a stop at the National Native >> >>>> Seed >> >>>> >> >>> Conference in Santa Fe NM on April 10) until the two weeks at the end >> >>> of April and the first week of May, then gone again beginning the 2nd >> >>> week of May until around May 24. I will not be checking email during >> >>> those periods, but will respond to as many email messages as possible >> >>> during those hiatuses. A third expedition following those is likely, >> >>> but the period of hiatus is iffy.] >> >>> >> >>>> Here is my parting question. Please feel free to post it on other >> lists. >> >>>> >> >>>> Re: Homosexuality in animals other than Homo sapiens. We know that >> >>>> >> >>> homosexual behavior occurs in other species in some forms (Bonobo >> >>> chimpanzees [Pan paniscus], for example), and we know that >> >>> hermaphrodites of some species fertilize each other simultaneously. >> >>> But my question is in which species other than humans, does EXCLUSIVE >> >>> homosexuality, especially in the form of pair bonds, occur? >> >>> >> >>>> WT >> >>>> >> >>>> I'll pick up my answers in late April. If I have time, I may be able >> >>>> to >> >>>> >> >>> respond to some today. Please respond on-list, and not to me >> personally. >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> ------------------------------**---------------------------- >> >> >> Kristen Dybala, Post-doctoral Researcher Museum of Wildlife and Fish >> >> Biology University of California, Davis kedyb...@ucdavis.edu<mailto:ke >> ** >> >> dyb...@ucdavis.edu <kedyb...@ucdavis.edu>> >> >> >> (415) 218-9295<tel:%28415%29%20218-9295> - cell >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> This electronic message contains information generated by the USDA >> solely >> >> for the intended recipients. Any unauthorized interception of this >> message >> >> or the use or disclosure of the information it contains may violate >> the law >> >> and subject the violator to civil or criminal penalties. If you >> believe you >> >> have received this message in error, please notify the sender and >> delete >> >> the email immediately. >> >> >> > >> > > > > -- > Patrick Mears > Research Scientist Assistant > Department of Marine Science > University of Texas at Austin >
