On Tue, 06 Mar 2018 12:17:59 -0500
Cedric Bail <ced...@ddlm.me> wrote:
> It is unlikely we can get the amount of money needed to pay a
> developer or more. So our use of the money will continue to be for
> server/infrastructure maintenance and conference help. If you do have
> an idea on how to get enough money to do more, I will be interested
> in your idea.

I do not think its unlikely to raise enough funds to further
development. May not be a full time salary, but could help pay for ones
time. More so than is happening now. Start small then ramp up.

A movie raised 4 million...

I do feel with a plan, money would follow. There are many raise to
fund raise. But it all has to be attached to a plan to use the money.
I can surely help with ideas for such a plan. I was working on such
within Gentoo long ago... You can see where Gentoo has not gone!

> They are usually not cross border working at all. PayPal has been a
> pain for myself as you can not change your account country once it is
> created. As soon as we are talking international, this things are
> creating a lot of friction.

Likely a flaw in their system. You can have more than one PayPal
account, maybe one for each country.
> > these days. Though that is limited to within the US. Like SEPA is
> > limited to EU banks.  
> Technically not, but in most country direct out of country transfer
> require you to go to the bank physically to do the transfer and
> anything above a few thousand dollar will be heavily scrutinized.
> Some country even forbid their own citizen to send money above a
> certain amount to an account that is not owned by them on the other
> side. So if you go to your bank, in the US, you can do a transfer by
> using the information provided on a SEPA bank account. Now that being
> said, I find it highly impractical, because you have to go a bank
> branch, we will deter people from doing it.
> And we are talking small amount here, so nothing big enough to
> justify any of the international mess that bank are creating.

Large amounts are not likely to come from individuals but businesses. I
am not aware of any projects receiving large donations from
individuals. That tends to come from businesses.

I think the issues, fees, exchange rates, etc are moot for small
contributions likely to come from individuals. The large amounts will
come from businesses. Which will already be familiar with such. Most of
them are already doing business in many nations.

There is also old fashioned checks/money order mailed to bank etc.
FreeBSD seems to have all options.

How it comes in matters less than how it goes out. That maybe more of
an issue with E/EFL devs being all over, etc.

> > > As the main use case are : keeping > a stash of money that doesn't
> > > disappear completely over time,  
> > 
> > Which is why IMHO you want a actual bank. Not digital currency, that
> > could be hacked, login lost, etc and no recovery. No customer
> > service, fraud protection etc.  
> Sure this are drawback. Still the amount of money we are talking is
> small and will be spread among many of this account. 

I would not always assume it will be small. In fact I would prepare and
plan for it to be big.

> What you see as  a login problem (being lost or hacked),

Millions lost

>  is something that I do see as an easier way to transmit control of
> the account to someone that will have time to care about. People come
> and go, every time you do have to deal with that with paper work
> accross the world, it is a serious pain.

Which is why you want stewards or people who do not come and go. I do
not think Carsten has come or gone. Maybe someday.

Say someone dies. How could you submit paperwork to recover a digital
currency account for an entity? Also which currency?

I assume bitcoin, but it is not the only one. You still have to go
through some entity. FreeBSD uses BitPay.

So we are talking BitPay 80 people vs PayPal 18.100.

> With cryptocurrency, we have a serie of files
> that are encrypted with gpg. We can quickly add or remore a key. Sure
> nothing fancy like multi signature account and stuff at the moment,
> but that will do for the amount of money we have to handle at this
> point. If we start to be bigger, we can look at how multi million
> company run their cryptocurrency account... No rush.

Not sure why you keep assuming amounts will always be small. Or that
Digitial Currency is that common or wide spread. Its very new, and to
many avenues. Different types of digital currency. Any company you go
through is also new. Your not likely to see a large amount of donations
coming in the form of digital currency.

How much do you have in digital currency or anyone? How easy is it to
go from local money to digital, back to local. Its pretty hard.

> > > ability to get money from all over the world and to send it all
> > > over the world too.  
> > 
> > This has yet to be an issue for Gentoo, which does operate globally
> > and collects funds globally. Though they have never been accounted
> > for properly nor proper filings with IRS, etc.  
> I would believe that Gentoo is a bigger project than E. This means a
> lot more people to deal with this.

Yes and no. E/EFL is older than Gentoo. It also runs on all Distros
where Gentoo is a distro in itself. Gentoo is not a popular distro like
others. But I would not say Gnome is smaller than Gentoo or KDE. Both
those are quite bigger. I would say its the EFL/E community that did
not allow for such growth.

> The French legislation for an
> association is pretty light in term of accounting and cost to run it.
> The only draw back at the moment is how we handle money via
> traditional bank which create friction and additional unecessary
> work. If we were to receive large amount of money from corporation,
> it could be something that would justify having a real bank account,
> but at the moment I do not see that happening. 

That is the entire purpose. Get big companies with big coffers to
donate. In US if 501c3, they get to right off as charitable donation.
Even further reason to donate if they can benefit from the tech and
profit that way, and also write off any donations, win win.

If your not setup to take large donations, they will not come... You
have to build it for them to come. You cannot wait for there to be a
need, and then take action then.

> You do realize that the dollar has lost 15% of its value against
> euros over last year and is likely due to continue ?

The dollar is still in wider use than Euro globally. The Euro is still
new, its barely ~30yrs old. The foundation it is built on is not very

> That if you do  not have a large amount of money in your bank
> account, their will be a continuous stream of small fee showing up
> that will dry it ?

There are no fees in Capital One. Only fees with money coming in via
say PayPal etc. No fees from Capital One, period. Well over limit/over
draft fees sure, insufficient funds, etc. That is the only fee.

> Basically we are talking something that will loose/gain random value
> quickly vs something that will eventually depleat your account
> completely.

If there are fees.... Digital currency does have fees at times

> Have you ever had to deal with that when you are not in the country
> where the bank account is ? We are all over the world and moving all
> the time. We are talking small amount spread over many currency.

YES!!! Opening an account for Gentoo had that exact problem. Foundation
officers in other nations that would need customer service, etc... It
took me 2 months to find a bank that would work for Gentoo... I went
through almost every US bank. I was just a Trustee, board member,  not
an officer. 

The most recent Gentoo Foundation Treasurer is not a US citizen, and
had no issues with Capital One customer service.

Now dealing with the IRS is another matter. Gentoo has not had much
luck there due to people outside the US trying to deal with the US IRS.
Also the wrong people. I was the one who got the Gentoo Foundation
reinstated with New Mexico long ago. They just keep that current.

Along the the bank account and also helping get draft by laws reviewed
and adopted. I was making good progress with Gentoo...

> > It has a very long way to go. Like how you go from crypto to real
> > currency. Not everyone uses crypto. Some places may still require a
> > check. How do you cut a check from crypto currency? Not to mention
> > like Visa/MC ATM cards for purchases, etc. Few places allow
> > checkout with crypto currency.  
> I think you are also missing the way we do handle the money. 

Maybe that along with other things need to change?

> We do reimburse people. The association doesn't pay directly for the
> server parts, or people tickets/hotels. We only send money to other
> account to reimburse fully or partially the cost. We do not need to
> pay any commercial entity directly. 

Gentoo reimburses as well.

Though there maybe a day where it may need to pay for stuff directly.
Always going through individuals makes it more informal than direct
payment from an entity.

William L. Thomson Jr.

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