Hi, I know I’m not really active here but I just wanted to agree with the sentiment here. It’s a little blunt but overall Stephen has a point.
I still think that would could have helped is a shared understanding of what is being done (& why) and who the project is aimed at. Armed with such a “vision” or “roadmap” it would be clearer if contributions will be welcomed or not. And if commercial sponsorship is taking the project in the right direction... Andrew On Sat, 10 Mar 2018 at 09:28, Stephen Houston <[email protected]> wrote: > There is so much I whole heartedly disagree with in your attitude and point > of view in this thread that will take me too much energy and time and > arguing to cover. I think other developers are coming to this same > realization and are leaving rather than trying to change your mind. This > project has become far more than just you and your opinion and what you > think is right but every word you say is coming out with an arrogance to it > that you can't possibly be wrong, and it seems this is why you don't want > to add any structure because then there would be rules that you too would > have to follow and decisions made that you would not like. While having a > free to work on and push whatever you like unless raster vetos it community > works out really well for you, you are not the entire dev or users > community and they are the ones being hurt. Our community is clearly down > and grasping for air. I don't think arguing for the status quo is a good > idea. > > On Sat, Mar 10, 2018, 3:43 AM Carsten Haitzler <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > On Fri, 9 Mar 2018 11:28:01 -0500 "William L. Thomson Jr." > > <[email protected]> said: > > > > > On Fri, 9 Mar 2018 13:38:36 +0900 > > > Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > a volunteer is not going to do something they dislike. certainly not > > > > readily. users have to convince the volunteer to do it. not the other > > > > way around (that volunteers need to be slaves to users and do work > > > > for them even if the volunteer disagrees and dislikes it). volunteers > > > > don't get paid... they do things because they desire and want to. > > > > it's the user's job to convince them... or for the user to stand up > > > > and do it themselves. :) > > > > > > Yes and no. Being a volunteer does not mean you just show up and do > > > what ever you want to do. I do not think anyone who thinks along those > > > lines has ever volunteered in person. In my area we do things like > > > beach cleanup, hurricane and disaster recovery. You do no get to just > > > show up and do what ever. You do get assigned things to do as a > > > volunteer. > > > > that's not how open source works. there is nothing keeping you around > > unlike > > thew moral obligation you put on yourself to volunteer to clean up after > a > > disaster for example. > > > > they are very very very different things. also physically volunteering > > means > > that walking away is something everyone sees you do. there is a face to > it. > > walking away from an oss project is simply stopping work. invariably > there > > are > > not even real names let alone faces associated. there e never many > > repercussions that you'd get from the example above like your neighbours > > and > > community giving you a hard time after walking off. > > > > also cleanup after a disaster is doing what has to be done, not what > > someone > > WANTS to be done. how would you like it if you volunteered to clean up > and > > the > > home owner comes by to the house you're cleaning stuff out of and says > "oh > > by > > the way. paint the walls lime green... no not that green. this green. and > > can > > you rebuild my garage to be a double instead of single, also use concrete > > instead of gravel on the driveway..." any volunteer and organization will > > tell > > them to jump in the lake. they get the cleanup they get. not just the > > exact way > > they want it to be. the volunteers and organization decide what needs > > doing. > > not the "users". they don't get a say. > > > > > When it comes to FOSS this gets lost. People think its my time, my > > > volunteering, I am going to do what ever I want with my time. That is > > > true within reason. But that also says they only care about themselves, > > > not the project, or what ever they are volunteering for. > > > > that is absolutely correct. that's what it is. it's not a humanitarian > > effort to > > clean up after a disaster. it's utterly superfluous really to the daily > > trials > > and tribulations of life. it's a luxury to get your software for free. > > > > it is absolutely the job of users to convince the devs to do what they > > want. > > not to expect devs to line up and take orders. > > > > > Which if they do not care about users, that also shows they do not > > > care about the entity, organization, or project over all. If users must > > > always convince others, that will not work, and tends to not work for > > > projects who go down that path. > > > > that is how almost every project works. do you think you can go to a > > kernel dev > > and tell them "i want you do add feature x for me" and they will just go > > do it? > > i can name almost every tingle oss project that if a user just tells a > > developer > > "i want x" and if the dev doesn't like x .. it's not going to happen. > even > > if > > user does x and submits a patch .. it doesn't mean the patch is accepted. > > > > if you believe projects are there to serve their users and just do > whatever > > they say.. then that is a very wrong idea. it may apply to projects whose > > only > > goal in life is popularity. that's very few of them and i can tell you > > that it > > almost always ends in tears as the project falls apart technically. > > > > > Just as devs/volunteers must be motivated to fulfill a users wishes and > > > > and that is where i think you have it wrong. devs absolutely have no > > requirement to fulfill users wishes. none. no requirement. if they do so > > it's > > them being kind, or perhaps being inspired or motivated by an idea or a > > user. > > unless their goal is pure popularity by saying yes to anything no matter > > what > > it is or what the cost to them just for a bit of popularity. > > > > > desires. A user has to be motivated to step up. They have to want to, > > > and that can start with wanting to work with given developers. If they > > > see those developers/volunteers are just self serving. They likely will > > > not want to work with them. I see that to often. People with skill, but > > > others avoid them and the distro. Then they use that to drive off > > > others saying others are having that effect. Not realizing its them... > > > Thus despite running others off, project still suffers. > > > > what you are describing is developer utterly ignoring users. i never said > > that. > > i did say that listening is good. it does not mean they just do whatever > a > > user asks. it goes like this: > > > > developer has the skills to do x > > user wants x done but can't or won't do it > > user wants developer to donate N hours of their life so they can have x > > it's the users job to convince the developer to give up those N hours > > > > time is the one resources you CANNOT buy as much of as you like even if > you > > have the resources. there are only 24hrs in a day. and everyone's life > > time is > > limited. no one who has grown any wisdom is going to waste hours of their > > limited lives on something they are not convinced is worth it. it's the > > job of > > the user who wants x to convince them that sacrifice is worth it. very > > simple. > > > > > I am also very much for PAID volunteers. Maybe not full time or part > > > time, but some bounty to help with motivation on things they want no > > > part of or not interested in doing otherwise. > > > > aaah now PAID means it's a transaction. "in return for X money you will > do > > what > > i tel you to do". if that is "fix THIS bug for $X" or "add this feature > for > > $Y". it's a deal. an agreed on IN ADVANCE deal. just being a developer > who > > works sometimes on project X does not mean it's a deal that "since i > donate > > some of my time to project X i must do whatever users tell me to". that > is > > absolutely not the contract. a contract is where both parties give up > > something. A gives up money in return from specific work from B. what you > > want > > is "developers give up X time in return for Y happiness of users". that > is > > not > > a given assumption. it's a contract that is user wants something has to > > present as a deal. if someone offer me $100,000 to sift through sewerage > > all > > day, every d for a year.. I'll tell them to go away. I don't like the > > deal. if > > they offer $500,000 I will still say the same. If you say "this feature > > will > > make me happy" ... if the feature makes ME unhappy.. i'll tell you to go > > away. > > it's not worth it. you have to CONVINCE me it is. either convince me of > the > > sheer happiness it will create *AND* that that happiness is something i > > might > > value, or you have to find some other way... maybe it will support future > > features i might value, or reduce bugs which is somethong i might value > > etc. > > etc... you have to sell it. like any deal. > > > > > > e doesn't follow the "unix philosophy". quoting it doesn't work. i > > > > believe in efficiency. if it's something that can be controlled by > > > > the same group and thus can get attention and get fixed along with it > > > > and it needs to be integrated (desktop icons require this as does > > > > efficiency) then it should be part of the same process most likely. > > > > > > Maybe it should, E runs mostly on *nix. Most of the world is *nix based > > > now, short of Microsoft. You also end up making someones focus to wide > > > vs narrow. Splitting ones time also as a result. As things grow it > > > becomes to much for any one. > > > > simply: no. you may believe differently. i do not think it should. that > > comes > > at a cost i do not like in the slightest. the source is divided cleanly > in > > the > > tree by files and directories. even into modules. but i disagree and > you're > > going to push against decades of disagreement there. i fully well know > the > > unix > > philosophy. i do not like the costs when it comes to something like > > enlightenment. if that is the philosophy for you ... there are other > > desktop > > projects that follow it. > > > > > I think its better for development, as things can evolve on their own > > > and not be bound to constraints from other things. > > > > > > > e has never been a "unix philosophy thing" for as long as it has > > > > existed. this is not a new thing. it's been the "have 1 process do as > > > > much of your day to day desktop as can be done/is sensible" and fm is > > > > sensible. it's not fundamentally that the shelf or e's menus or > > > > wallpaper handling etc. - if you want the unix philosophy then all of > > > > those move out to processes too. if you like that then kde is > > > > probably good for you. :) gnome used to be until gnome 3... :) > > > > > > What E is today ans has been does not mean it has to be that way > > > tomorrow. Even Apple realized their old OS and ways were garbage, and > > > tossed them for older stuff. Look at the result.... > > > > if you want me involved... it will stay the way it is. it is that > > philosophy > > that leads to things like: > > > > <benrob0329> I got tiers of it when i3 messed up my Subnautica (that I > got > > working in wine pretty decently) > > <benrob0329> *tired > > <benrob0329> It takes less ram and composites, is more flexible and is > > closer > > to a full DE > > <raster> e takes less ram? > > <raster> than i3? > > <benrob0329> i3 with Compton anyways > > <raster> really? > > <benrob0329> My old setup was always over 400 megs > > <raster> you've got to be joking... > > <benrob0329> E is like 255 with rage and terminology open > > <raster> that's... bizarre > > <raster> i'm shocked. > > > > I never expected E to out-do i3+compton. but it does. over my dead body > do > > we > > change direction to nix that advantage. > > > > > And what has happened since gnome? Less GTK3 dev, and more GTK2 dev and > > > desktops. Gnome did not help itself nor GTK. It just helped XFCE, Mint, > > > and others. That should be a learning lesson there. > > > > > > > > I just do not like any one thing taking out other stuff. The more > > > > > things can be limited and only effect themselves, the better IMHO. > > > > > > > > that is why e has crash recovery... :) but everything being separate > > > > comes with a cost. it's not cheap to have lots of processes. > > > > especially for things you run all the time, like a filemanager (for > > > > the normal icons on desktop). > > > > > > You would not need the crash recovery as such. In the past window > > > managers would crash and other stuff keep chugging along. Also that is > > > IF you can restart E in time. That is not always the case. > > > > NOT if you are also a compositor. and absolutely not in a wayland world. > so > > crash recovery is not even an option. it's a necessary. > > > > > The thing is I do need the filemanager running all the time. Icons on > > > the desktop could be rendered otherwise. Like what Plasma has done as > an > > > example. That is not related to the file manager. Having the file > > > manager running always just for desktop icons seems like a bit much. > > > > i'm not going to go any more into this. i know other ways of doing it. > they > > come at complexity and/or memory and other overhead costs. i am well > aware > > of > > the trade-offs. this is the one i chose for e because i am absolutely > > certain > > it's the best/right one. > > > > > > like arrows pointing in over a directory indicating you are going to > > > > drop the file into the directory? > > > > > > I guess not sure. There are for arrows, one in each corner, and they > > > like point in as part of their animation. Horrible description sorry! > > > > > > I cannot easily replicate that animation. If I drag a file over a > > > folder nothing happens. Just noticed I cannot drag a file into a folder > > > or anything. I am not sure how to trigger that animation, but seems > > > like its some drag and drop. Though I think its happened on regular > > > files not just folders. > > > > you drag over the folder. the icon becomes hilighted with arrows pointing > > in > > with animation to indicate "dropping INTO this directory". it doesn't > > happen to > > regular files because you cant drop INTO a regular file. i'm staring at > ti > > doing this right now... it is how it's pretty much always worked for many > > years > > > > > > if it's that - how does it get stuck. it's objects in the canvas in > > > > the window.. they are drawn in the window.. so they can't remain if > > > > the window goes. there is no canvas to draw them anymore... > > > > > > You would think so, next time it happens I will take a screenshot and > > > you will see the animation remains. Its odd and annoying. > > > > what you describe is just absolutely not possible if its the "drop into > > this > > folder" stuff as above. either the description is bad or you > mis-remember. > > but > > it's like saying "my pc crashed" ... but the power to it was off. it > can't > > crash if it's off. these drop into folder icons cant appear if the canvas > > they > > are in has been deleted. they might leak memory .. that is possible, but > > they > > cant be rendered without the canvas they live in. > > > > > >so this doesn't make sense. unless its the desktop files - that > > > >window is the whole fulls screen canvas of the compositor... and i > > > >can't make the arrows stay around at all... if drop is done they go > > > >away. if dnd moves somewhere else they go away. > > > > > > I never full screen most anything that is rare. This tends to happen > > > > no. it has nothing to do with fullscreening windows. there is a single > > canvas > > covering ALL screens. the entire swet of visible pixels you can see > across > > all > > possible screens is a big single canvas. desktop icons live in that > canvas > > as > > do e menus, the shelf ... and "image bitmaps" that are windows. the > > windows are > > just "image bitmap objects" in the compositor canvas. the bug "covers all > > screens" canvas has no clue as to the CONTENT. it's just a blob of > pixels. > > the > > pixels are rendered to a window/pixmap in x or a buffer in wayland by > > whatever > > owns that window/surface. efm windows are normal windows but the same e > > compositor process also owns the rendering and content of these windows > > too. > > thus it generated this pixel content for itself. > > > > > for me on accident. I accidentally click on something or drag something > > > and boom, stuck animation. Likely why I cannot replicate. I just know I > > > have seen it more than most other EFM issues. > > > > > > > it's about the only annoyance i find as its just a fast way of nuking > > > > a file rather than right-click .. navigate to delete, then say > > > > "yes"in the dialog or hit del key and say "yes" in dialog. drag and > > > > drop into a trashcan is faster and simpler and... it's undoable (if > > > > done right). > > > > > > The drag into a trashcan/recycle bin to delete is faster. Though I > > > cannot drag and drop into folders now... I thought you were more > > > wanting the extra step of not actually deleting something, but moving > > > it to a intermediary location in case you did not want to delete. > > > > just wanted less steps. > > > > > I always took trashcan on windows is oops I deleted that, let me get it > > > back from the trashcan. I kind of like that as a fail safe. Though on > > > KDE seems I had to go clean out those trash folders at times. Then does > > > nothing for you at cli, so.... > > > > the "get it back" is also a nice extra feature but simply having a quick > > action > > that is hard to "do by accident" (hitting the del key is easy to do by > > accident, thus the need for a dialog - also since the delete is not > > undoable it > > should be there. if we had a trashcan where deletes went instead i'd > > remove the > > dialog as deletes are undoable then, but a dnd into a traschan in the > > corner > > of your screen is nice and fast anyway) > > > > > > > Along the same lines, I cannot select multiple files/folders/icons > > > > > on the desktop. Though maybe related to main menu being left click. > > > > > You > > > > > > > > of course you can. shift and ctrl + click. you cant "rubber-band" > > > > select and that's because this conflicts with the main menu which > > > > activates on mouse down and uses the same click+drag+release style of > > > > use (as well as click+release then another click+release). > > > > > > Yes the "rubber-band" I missed, but figured it was due to main menu. I > > > use the other method, shift + ctrl, selecting the files. Just takes a > > > bit more time. I do not do it that often so some what moot. > > > > that was why i never wanted to remove the menu on mouse down to make > rubber > > banding work. it just wasn't worth it unless you cover your desktop in > > files > > and it's a mess and they need rubber-band selecting... but then my take > > is... > > why did you make a mess like that to begin with? my desktop is mostly for > > a few > > file/dir shortcuts in the corners and maybe some temporary stuff now and > > again... and i think a normal workflow would be similar thus sacrificing > > the > > menu quickness for this i dont think is worth it. > > > > -- > > ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -------------- > > Carsten Haitzler - [email protected] > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > > _______________________________________________ > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > [email protected] > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > _______________________________________________ > enlightenment-devel mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > -- http://andywilliams.me http://ajwillia.ms ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ enlightenment-devel mailing list [email protected] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
