On Sat, 10 Mar 2018 11:57:56 -0500 "William L. Thomson Jr."
<wlt...@obsidian-studios.com> said:

> On Sat, 10 Mar 2018 16:35:02 +0900
> Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) <ras...@rasterman.com> wrote:
> >
> > that's not how open source works. there is nothing keeping you around
> > unlike thew moral obligation you put on yourself to volunteer to
> > clean up after a disaster for example.
> Yes and no. Not doing what you say you will, or following through
> publicly online can be a much more permanent visible record than not
> showing in person.
> > they are very very very different things. also physically
> > volunteering means that walking away is something everyone sees you
> > do.
> Who the internet? Nothing like saying online in archives you will do
> something and then not. Where strangers around the world can see you
> did or did not do something.

i notice people on line being far more flaky than in real life. maybe that's my
experience, but if they have to disappoint you to your face it tends to happen
> > there is a face to it. walking away from an oss project is simply
> > stopping work. invariably there are not even real names let alone
> > faces associated. there e never many repercussions that you'd get
> > from the example above like your neighbours and community giving you
> > a hard time after walking off.
> The chance of not seeing people in person, vs not coming across
> someones name online is not even in the same league. You can easily
> come across and find people online you cannot in person. You can move
> to a new town where your record as a flaky volunteer would not be known.
> Unless someone published it from physical to online.
> Again I think people saying such haven't volunteered. People no show
> quite often. There is no peer pressure, etc. Most have no clue what
> anyone volunteered to do, said they would, etc.

Maybe our experiences differ - I've seen it through more structured
volunteering e.g. like volunteering days at school or via work as well as

> > also cleanup after a disaster is doing what has to be done, not what
> > someone WANTS to be done. how would you like it if you volunteered to
> > clean up and the home owner comes by to the house you're cleaning
> > stuff out of and says "oh by the way. paint the walls lime green...
> > no not that green. this green. and can you rebuild my garage to be a
> > double instead of single, also use concrete instead of gravel on the
> > driveway..." any volunteer and organization will tell them to jump in
> > the lake. they get the cleanup they get. not just the exact way they
> > want it to be. the volunteers and organization decide what needs
> > doing. not the "users". they don't get a say.
> Really you assume all things are rebuilt exactly as they were? Again I
> do not think you have experienced such first hand. They very much
> follow the requests of the home/property owner, etc.

No. I'm comparing volunteering for disaster recovery when it's more about just
getting things back to working rather than perfect vs. volunteer work on an
open source project. Disaster cleanup (2 of your examples) I think are vastly
different beasts to an OSS software project.

> The only time you have no choice, is like when there is debris that
> must be cleared. If you think people just go into others homes and do

That's what I'm thinking when you talk about hurricane and disaster recovery
volunteering. Debris everywhere, buildings damaged etc. etc.

> what ever with no direction. Again that shows more a lack of
> in person volunteer experience than reality.
> > > When it comes to FOSS this gets lost. People think its my time, my
> > > volunteering, I am going to do what ever I want with my time. That
> > > is true within reason. But that also says they only care about
> > > themselves, not the project, or what ever they are volunteering
> > > for.  
> > 
> > that is absolutely correct. that's what it is. it's not a
> > humanitarian effort to clean up after a disaster. it's utterly
> > superfluous really to the daily trials and tribulations of life. it's
> > a luxury to get your software for free.
> You would be surprised. There are many luxuries in life, such as a
> fence around your property. Nothing would effect daily life if that was
> missing.
> I do not think it is a luxury to get software for free. If you think
> about what comes on say Apple or Microsoft to open source alternatives.
> Open source is not really that luxurious or feature rich in comparison.
> Not to mention your time you will spend, you would not otherwise. Its
> not like users do nothing in FOSS. They spend more time than they would
> with non-free software. Why despite free software, most run non-free.

Imagine if all the FOSS devs just never had released anything... :) Imagine the
only choices in the world were the software you describe above?

> > it is absolutely the job of users to convince the devs to do what
> > they want. not to expect devs to line up and take orders.
> Its the job of devs to be receptive to users. Users have no job. Their
> sole role is to use. They could not say anything to devs and use
> another product. That doesn't help developers or their products.

I dis agree that it's the developers job. I do agree that it's a good thing.
One is an obligation, the other something nice. The result is the same if the
developer is being nice. I still maintain that if a user wants to be heard,
they have to make an effort and that involves convincing the developers.

> Users are very important. Why there is the saying, the customer is
> always right. There is not a saying, the developer is always right,
> etc. The user is the customer.

I think you take that out of context. The customer is not always right. If
customers went to Tesla "I'm the customer. Since I'm right you have to give me
your Model S for free. I'm a customer. I'm always right." ... do you think that
would work? The customer is not right here. The customer has to convince Tesla
to hand over a card by offering money. Like the price advertised.

So FOSS software is already free. No money handed over. Instead the user either
takes it as-is and uses it, or chooses not to, and if they wish to change
something they can either step up and do the work themselves, OR convince a
developer to do it for them.

"The customer is always right" is not an absolute. That is my point. It has its
limitations. As does everything.

> > > Which if they do not care about users, that also shows they do not
> > > care about the entity, organization, or project over all. If users
> > > must always convince others, that will not work, and tends to not
> > > work for projects who go down that path.  
> > 
> > that is how almost every project works. do you think you can go to a
> > kernel dev and tell them "i want you do add feature x for me" and
> > they will just go do it? i can name almost every tingle oss project
> > that if a user just tells a developer "i want x" and if the dev
> > doesn't like x .. it's not going to happen. even if user does x and
> > submits a patch .. it doesn't mean the patch is accepted.
> That is the same for most anything in life not just FOSS. Just because
> its wanted does not mean it will happen. That does not mean they stick
> around, surely not when there is a choice.
> One says no, one says yes, where do users end up?

The have to try tip the balance.

> > if you believe projects are there to serve their users and just do
> > whatever they say.. then that is a very wrong idea. it may apply to
> > projects whose only goal in life is popularity. that's very few of
> > them and i can tell you that it almost always ends in tears as the
> > project falls apart technically.
> I have actually seen the opposite. I feel the opposite. If projects do
> not serve their community or user base, they will lose them and cease
> being a project. Communities and user base make or break things.
> You can have the best tech in the world. If no one uses it, who cares?

That is generally true.

> > > Just as devs/volunteers must be motivated to fulfill a users wishes
> > > and  
> > 
> > and that is where i think you have it wrong. devs absolutely have no
> > requirement to fulfill users wishes. none. no requirement. if they do
> > so it's them being kind, or perhaps being inspired or motivated by an
> > idea or a user. unless their goal is pure popularity by saying yes to
> > anything no matter what it is or what the cost to them just for a bit
> > of popularity.
> Our differences maybe visible in why the E community is not larger,
> more active, popular, etc. Some of the E forks are catering to users....
> You say I am wrong, I say you are wrong. Where can we find anything to
> support one or the other factually? I think looking at the numbers
> behind E/EFL are the most telling. Now there seems to be uproar from
> devs. Lack of users, and now devs are having issues.
> Hardly good things to reinforce any viewpoint. You can see the EXACT
> same in Gentoo, attitude, stance, and effect on the project.

I think we disagree on the obligation or requirement. I don't think an
obligation exists. I do think it's nice to listen to users though. I've
probably spent more time listening, reading and interacting with users than
most over the past 20 years.

> > > desires. A user has to be motivated to step up. They have to want
> > > to, and that can start with wanting to work with given developers.
> > > If they see those developers/volunteers are just self serving. They
> > > likely will not want to work with them. I see that to often. People
> > > with skill, but others avoid them and the distro. Then they use
> > > that to drive off others saying others are having that effect. Not
> > > realizing its them... Thus despite running others off, project
> > > still  suffers.  
> > 
> > what you are describing is developer utterly ignoring users. i never
> > said that. i did say that listening is good. it does not mean they
> > just do whatever a user asks. it goes like this:
> No need for examples, there are forks that are real world examples.
> People wanted things that went against E development. Thus things
> forked. Rather than finding a way to appease and keep things together.

at least the bodhi one there was no way. theme changes had to be made to move
compositing into core .. and that was necessary for wayland. the theme breaks
they dind't want to adapt to - and i totally get the pain, but choosing the
quick way out is not the best for the long term here. the other was moving
everything into the compositor and that raised the cpu usage of e. that was
meant to be solved by evas buffered objects which were on the plan but never
got done. the solution would be to actually do the buffering of evas objects to
solve that. the former is a short-term view vs long term.

> > time is the one resources you CANNOT buy as much of as you like even
> > if you have the resources. there are only 24hrs in a day. and
> > everyone's life time is limited. no one who has grown any wisdom is
> > going to waste hours of their limited lives on something they are not
> > convinced is worth it. it's the job of the user who wants x to
> > convince them that sacrifice is worth it. very simple.
> I am quite aware. Why you need users, who become developers, so numbers
> increase, and there are many to help. Time is limited, but number of
> those helping is not. Only way to increase the amount of things being
> done, increase time, is to increase the number of people doing the work.
> The more you keep thinking users have any job or its their job. The
> more you will limit the number of users in general. Which has its own
> effect, that is not good.

if users want developers to do everything for them they will never migrate to
being developers. the best way is to push them gently into becoming developers
by scratching their own itches.

> > > I am also very much for PAID volunteers. Maybe not full time or part
> > > time, but some bounty to help with motivation on things they want no
> > > part of or not interested in doing otherwise.  
> > 
> > aaah now PAID means it's a transaction. "in return for X money you
> > will do what i tel you to do".
> Not always, ever heard of Google Summer of Code? Also why I said
> bounty, as it is a reward for completion.

it is a transaction though... payment in return for a summer project delivery.

> >  if that is "fix THIS bug for $X" or
> > "add this feature for $Y". it's a deal. an agreed on IN ADVANCE
> > deal. just being a developer who works sometimes on project X does
> > not mean it's a deal that "since i donate some of my time to project
> > X i must do whatever users tell me to".
> Lets think about that. A big company donates money and would like to
> see something done. If that is done, there is a good chance you will
> get more money. If it is not, you likely will not get more.
> Who says by donating money to FOSS you get any benefit? But if you get
> a donation and seek to ensure those who donated get a benefit. You get
> more donations.
> Almost no donation is tied to specific expectations. If a project
> funded development with donated dollars. There would be expectation of
> that task being done by the developer being tasked and paid to do said
> work.

bug bounties as you were mentioning are tied, as is GSOC. general donations are
not tied to specifics indeed.

> >  that is absolutely not the
> > contract. a contract is where both parties give up something. A gives
> > up money in return from specific work from B. what you want is
> > "developers give up X time in return for Y happiness of users". that
> > is not a given assumption. it's a contract that is user wants
> > something has to present as a deal. 
> What contracts? Your seeing things differently.

a contract doesn't have to be in writing or even formal. it's simply an
agreement of exchange. party A gives up X in return for party B giving up Y
(giving up may mean doing work or handing over money or pretty much doing any
act at all). i'm using the legal definition:

"1) n. an agreement with specific terms between two or more persons or entities
in which there is a promise to do something in return for a valuable benefit
known as consideration"


> > if someone offer me $100,000 to
> > sift through sewerage all day, every d for a year.. I'll tell them to
> > go away. I don't like the deal. if they offer $500,000 I will still
> > say the same. If you say "this feature will make me happy" ... if the
> > feature makes ME unhappy.. i'll tell you to go away. it's not worth
> > it. you have to CONVINCE me it is. either convince me of the sheer
> > happiness it will create *AND* that that happiness is something i
> > might value, or you have to find some other way... maybe it will
> > support future features i might value, or reduce bugs which is
> > somethong i might value etc. etc... you have to sell it. like any
> > deal.
> The biggest thing that stands out is the amount of times you referenced
> yourself. Do you think FOSS is only about serving yourself? You do not
> need to release code to serve your own needs. If you release code you
> are doing that for others.

in this example i'm using that as an example. i had hoped it was clear that it
was an example.

> The whole purpose of FOSS is to benefit all. Your not coding for
> yourself, your coding for everyone. Granted your not supporting the
> wishes and needs of everyone. But if you fail to do that for your
> community. You will not have a community, just yourself.

i think that's i what i was saying. you can't just do whatever any and all
users want. developers are the end of the line for deciding if something is and
isn't done. they may base that on input from users or any other number of

> Its not so much quid pro quo. Its doing things that would encourage
> more from others.
> > simply: no. you may believe differently. i do not think it should.
> > that comes at a cost i do not like in the slightest. the source is
> > divided cleanly in the tree by files and directories. even into
> > modules. but i disagree and you're going to push against decades of
> > disagreement there. i fully well know the unix philosophy.
> I am simply talking about runtime. One thing crashing or having
> problems should not take out another.  Or be limited as much as
> possible. I do not see the benefits of EFM being integrated in E, so
> that one can effect the other.

the same problems efm can have would affect e's menus or shelf or gadgets or
any number of things. if it's objects getting stuck it most likely has to do
with evas or edje or something there and efm isn't necessarily at fault. efm
actually is pretty much just the ui. the file io is basically farmed out to a
back-end process. i did this because of having had too many issues of having
syscalls stuck on flaky removable devices or nfs and when a syscall gets stuck
in the kernel there is no fixing it. the process cannot be killed. this
actually seems to have improve markedly over the years and it sno longer really
the case.

> its programs doing small things and those well, part of the unix
> philosophy. Not splitting up code etc.

the shelf should be a process, each gadget a process, every config dialog a
process ... the wallpaper should be a process and a window of its own... when
you go down this road you end up consuming maybe 50-100m ram more than today.

> >  i do not like the costs when it comes to something like
> > enlightenment. if that is the philosophy for you ... there are other
> > desktop projects that follow it.
> Maybe why most people run desktops other than E. Maybe you should think
> about that statement a bit. Your approach and stance, maybe the cause
> behind such. Do you think you will win someday? Get the type of numbers
> Gnome, KDE, XFCE, Mint, etc have for E? If you don't have them now, why
> do you think you ever will without a change?

i never wanted to or thought that would happen. it's not a goal of mine. if i
wanted popularity i'd have removed all of es' features and been a minimal
window manager for gnome. gnome wanted its own panel and its own taskbar and
own pager etc. etc and wm's were to provide an api to make that happen. i never
wanted that and being forced to give up on all these nice things just to be
popular broke my heart.

i want to solve a specific set of issues. that's why i did e. i didn't do it to
become the most popular or get "millions of users". it might be nice. it'd be
great. but it isn't the primary or major reasons for e to exist. perhaps some
developers do have this as their primary goal. some users maybe too. it's not

now if e becomes bloated then the whole set of users complaining all the time
about "bloated desktops" don't have any reason to even look at e, so that's one
large reason to go that way, you have to differentiate to have a reason to
exist where you are not actually cheaper than the competition.

> Which is the real question. Do you want things to grow?
> > > I think its better for development, as things can evolve on their
> > > own and not be bound to constraints from other things.
> > >   
> > > > e has never been a "unix philosophy thing" for as long as it has
> > > > existed. this is not a new thing. it's been the "have 1 process
> > > > do as much of your day to day desktop as can be done/is sensible"
> > > > and fm is sensible. it's not fundamentally that the shelf or e's
> > > > menus or wallpaper handling etc. - if you want the unix
> > > > philosophy then all of those move out to processes too. if you
> > > > like that then kde is probably good for you. :) gnome used to be
> > > > until gnome 3... :)  
> > > 
> > > What E is today ans has been does not mean it has to be that way
> > > tomorrow. Even Apple realized their old OS and ways were garbage,
> > > and tossed them for older stuff. Look at the result....  
> > 
> > if you want me involved... it will stay the way it is. it is that
> > philosophy that leads to things like:
> Well I am not sure Apple would have ended up as it did, if they had not
> fired Steve Jobbs. That was good for both of them. I would hope it
> would not come to the point of you leaving. But if you did, you may
> feel differently than you do now over time. Looking at things from the
> outside and a different perspective.

You want to change fundamental philosophies... what do you expect? I just bend
and say "sure. whatever."?

> > <benrob0329> I got tiers of it when i3 messed up my Subnautica (that
> > I got working in wine pretty decently)
> > <benrob0329> *tired
> > <benrob0329> It takes less ram and composites, is more flexible and
> > is closer to a full DE
> > <raster> e takes less ram?
> > <raster> than i3?
> > <benrob0329> i3 with Compton anyways
> > <raster> really?
> > <benrob0329> My old setup was always over 400 megs
> > <raster> you've got to be joking... 
> > <benrob0329> E is like 255 with rage and terminology open
> > <raster> that's... bizarre
> > <raster> i'm shocked.
> > 
> > I never expected E to out-do i3+compton. but it does. over my dead
> > body do we change direction to nix that advantage.
> I have seen the same with E as well. I am not saying that, but if EFM
> was not running. Maybe it would be even less.... My phone uses more
> memory than E... When I have Firefox Netbeans, and other stuff open.

If fileman module is not loaded it consumes zero ram basically (just some
extra code on disk for the efm code that drives other things too).

If it is loaded it consumes maybe about 50-100k of ram or so plus memory
needed for the icons themselves.

if done as an external process it'd consume 5-10m, or so of ram just to sit
around plus cost of memory for icons plus buffer per screen (actually 2-3
buffers for flipping so for a 1080p screen so about 16-24m per such screen) as
it's probably need a screen sized empty window to place on the background to
capture events and to be able to render icons there. so for my desktop which
has 2x22560x1440 screens let's say about 90-100m or so on top of current costs
is not an unreasonable ballpark cost.

> > > You would not need the crash recovery as such. In the past window
> > > managers would crash and other stuff keep chugging along. Also that
> > > is IF you can restart E in time. That is not always the case.  
> > 
> > NOT if you are also a compositor. and absolutely not in a wayland
> > world. so crash recovery is not even an option. it's a necessary.
> I never saw options in other stuff to restart. They handle that

my first wm i ever used was mwm. back on black nd white labtam xterms in like
1994. it has a restart menu option. it re-executed itself. that's how it
updated config by restarting. so did twm, ctwm and fvwm from those days.

restart exists as a way to reset as well as to update to a new instance after
upgrading e or efl on disk. no need to log out and in. it also serves to be
able to solve niggly issues until fixed.

if an external fileman has such issues you'd have to restart it too. no
difference there.

> differently. I have had issues with window mangers and compositors. Why
> it taking out the desktop and other is new.
> None of that makes the case for why EFM needs to be integrated. I doubt
> Wayland needs EFM.

desktop icons to start. the alternative is to open a window covering the
desktop. you don't fight over events as it's integrated. it's co-operatively
designed to work with that. startup time - starting wm and fm at the same time
put extra i/o load on the disk and extra work on the cpu vs a single process and
a module. one thing i didn't do but i had planned was to actually have an efm
view in the shelf to put commonly accessed files/dirs and so on right there.

> > > The thing is I do need the filemanager running all the time. Icons
> > > on the desktop could be rendered otherwise. Like what Plasma has
> > > done as an example. That is not related to the file manager. Having
> > > the file manager running always just for desktop icons seems like a
> > > bit much.  
> > 
> > i'm not going to go any more into this. i know other ways of doing
> > it. they come at complexity and/or memory and other overhead costs. i
> > am well aware of the trade-offs. this is the one i chose for e
> > because i am absolutely certain it's the best/right one.
> I really cannot understand why so tied to the concept of a deeply

efficiency. out of the box access. less complexity in deciding how desktop
events are handled etc.

> integrated file manager. I do not see it benefiting say file selectors
> in applications. Does the Elementary file selector use EFM?

it doesn't. and it can't. that is actually an issue where efm may need to move
into elementay as a widget. but we're just arguing where the code for the gui
lives. in the e binary or in a shared lib. its the extra process that's the
real cost.

> > you drag over the folder. the icon becomes hilighted with arrows
> > pointing in with animation to indicate "dropping INTO this
> > directory". it doesn't happen to regular files because you cant drop
> > INTO a regular file. i'm staring at ti doing this right now... it is
> > how it's pretty much always worked for many years
> The animation fails to trigger at times over folders. It was not

it is working reliably as can be for e here... i can't reproduce your problem :
( regardless if efm was in e or stand-alone, the issue would be the same. in or
out of process makes a different only to which processes get taken  down on a
crash and in efficiency.

> working in EFM till I did it on desktop with folders. Then the folders
> started being animated when dragging something over in EFM.
> Its quirky...

what are you running? i'm on git efl + e.

> > what you describe is just absolutely not possible if its the "drop
> > into this folder" stuff as above. either the description is bad or
> > you mis-remember.. but it's like saying "my pc crashed" ... but the
> > power to it was off. it can't crash if it's off. these drop into
> > folder icons cant appear if the canvas they are in has been deleted.
> > they might leak memory .. that is possible, but they cant be rendered
> > without the canvas they live in.
> I will provide a screenshot next it happens. Then you can say I
> photoshopped it because its impossible.

please do ... and some description of how to reproduce it.

> > > >so this  doesn't make sense. unless its the desktop files - that
> > > >window is the whole fulls screen canvas of the compositor... and i
> > > >can't make the arrows stay around at all... if drop is done they go
> > > >away. if dnd moves somewhere else they go away.  
> > > 
> > > I never full screen most anything that is rare. This tends to
> > > happen  
> > 
> > no. it has nothing to do with fullscreening windows. there is a
> > single canvas covering ALL screens. the entire swet of visible pixels
> > you can see across all possible screens is a big single canvas.
> > desktop icons live in that canvas as do e menus, the shelf ... and
> > "image bitmaps" that are windows. the windows are just "image bitmap
> > objects" in the compositor canvas. the bug "covers all screens"
> > canvas has no clue as to the CONTENT. it's just a blob of pixels..
> > the pixels are rendered to a window/pixmap in x or a buffer in
> > wayland by whatever owns that window/surface. efm windows are normal
> > windows but the same e compositor process also owns the rendering and
> > content of these windows too. thus it generated this pixel content
> > for itself.
> If EFM is integrated, drawing desktop icons. There is some connection
> between Desktop and any File manager windows. Its all the same process
> right? Anyway we can go back and forth. I will just provide a
> screenshot ASAP. Then you can ponder on that, or accuse me of making
> the image. Either way it happens.

the way things are rendered, contained etc. is different.

> > that was why i never wanted to remove the menu on mouse down to make
> > rubber banding work. it just wasn't worth it unless you cover your
> > desktop in files and it's a mess and they need rubber-band
> > selecting... but then my take is... why did you make a mess like that
> > to begin with? my desktop is mostly for a few file/dir shortcuts in
> > the corners and maybe some temporary stuff now and again... and i
> > think a normal workflow would be similar thus sacrificing the menu
> > quickness for this i dont think is worth it.
> In the coarse of a work day. I may create a variety of scratch text
> files that end up all over my desktop. Then I go to delete them all
> with rubber banding.  Just an example of how it fits into work flow.
> Some people use a desktop like an actual desk. It gets messy during the
> course of a work day.

i guess yours gets a lot messier than mine.

> Even with left click bound, right click, when not over an file, folder,
> icon, etc. could possible still have that feature.

what do you mean? you mean rubber-band select with right mouse click+drag?

> In KDE at times I used notes, but that is another thing. There
> was a E notes gadget, but seems to be e17, or a moshka thing.
> https://www.kde.org/applications/utilities/knotes/
> https://github.com/thewaiter/StickyNotes
> Even with that, I sometimes make a file mess I cleanup, etc.
> It is not a big deal either way.
> -- 
> William L. Thomson Jr.

------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --------------
Carsten Haitzler - ras...@rasterman.com

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