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Don't blame you Al. You're correct - Yes and No is probably THE answer. That said, and my having done more than just one or two radio installations, here's some food for thought...... If you think you might possibly ever sell your plane in the future, then my suggestion is to submit a 337 whether or not the instrument or radio or installation, etc. is STC'd, TSO'd or not. It may or may not require a Field Approval, but it's nice to have the 337 on file and in the records. I seen - for good reason - poor records and logbook entries drive down the seller's asking price a considerable amount on more than one aircraft. Aircraft with meticulous records/logbook entries usually sell for more. I know a lot of wannabe renegades say the less you put in the logbooks, the less the feds have to use against you, but I've found just the opposite to be true. Detailed entries and records have kept me out of trouble and have helped expedite things on more than one occasion. On another note, here's a tip that might be worthwhile: With the way the FAA now has their website set up and it being fairly constantly updated, one might be able to save oneself some money by doing the research and investigation into whatever installation/alteration/repair/AD compliance/whatever is being done and have it all laid out and available to the IA beforehand when getting ready to submit a 337. The IA, of course, will have to confirm all the information, etc., persented, but it could save several hours of billing time. Saving the IA some legwork - maintenance records and logbook entries come into play here - could make a difference of several hundred buckaroos to the owner/operator. I know of one case (I wasn't involved) recently where the aircraft owner was upset because he was presented with a bill for eight hours of time (the IA actually spent over TWICE that researching and confirming compliance, etc.) due to poor records and logbook entries. Just some food for thought........ Tom > ----[Please read http://ercoupers.com/disclaimer.htm before following any > advice in this forum.]---- > > > I really wanted to stay out of this one again, but folks just keep > bringing it up waiting to hear a particular answer. If you want the > truth, then it's NO, you don't need TSO'd instruments to operate part 91, > but if you want to complicate things, then the answer is YES. I ain't > sayin' any more about this. > > Al DeMarzo > Visit the Ercoupe Swap Page - Free and Easy > http://www.ercoupeowners.com/swap/swapbook.htm > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Hartmut Beil > To: [email protected] > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 10:04 AM > Subject: Re: [COUPERS-TECH] TSO'd vs Non TSO'd instruments: another view > > > ----[Please read http://ercoupers.com/disclaimer.htm before following any > advice in this forum.]---- > > > Ok . > This thread started as inquiry of whether instruments need to be TSO'd > in an Ercoupe. > > I searched the web a bit and found no definite statements on whether > TSO'd instruments are required in our birds. > What it boils down to though is that the original certification is the > guide here. > If originally TSO's instruments are listed, these have to go in or a > request be filed for a as good or better substitute. > > It is my understanding that TSO was an unknown in the forties and > fifties, so there you go, you only have to install an airspeed meter > that is as good as the one that the coupe was delivered with. > This could also include non-TSO'd instruments. I was told by an > instrument shop that the non-TSO instruments are sometimes of even a > better quality, just without a TSO. ( The UMA airspeed meter - TSO'd - > is crap and a throw-away instrument by the way) > This is only true for the basic instrumentation. > > If it comes to radios, transponders etc , different rules are in place. > > Transponders for example have to be TSO'd - all of them, as required per > law - and the installation should be noted with a 337 I think. > Radios might follow a different standard. I assume that a non TSO'd > radio will do as good as a TSO's one in our coupes since there is no > radio listed in our original certification. But here again I would > suggest a 337 to be recorded with the FAA. > This is at least common practice. > > Hartmut > ----- Original Message ----- > From: WILLIAM BIGGS > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [email protected] > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 3:39 PM > Subject: Re: [COUPERS-TECH] TSO'd vs Non TSO'd instruments: another > view > > > How about the instructions for continued airworthiness. > > The new electrical load? > > Bill > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From: Dan Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: Dan Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: Ctech <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [COUPERS-TECH] TSO'd vs Non TSO'd instruments: another > view > Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 07:28:59 -0500 > >----[Please read http://ercoupers.com/disclaimer.htm before > >following any advice in this forum.]---- > > > > > >I think some of the confusion may be between the work that the > >aircraft owner can do as preventative maintenance, the work that an > >AI can sign off with a log book entry as a minor change, and the > >major work that requires a 337 or FAA field approval. This is a > >seperate issue from the TSO vs non TSO'd instruments. > > > >My understanding is that work on a non structural panel, such as > >installing radios, requires only a log book entry and recording of > >the new weight and balance data by an AI. > > > >Dan Brown > > > > > >John Roach wrote: > > > >>----[Please read http://ercoupers.com/disclaimer.htm before > >>following any advice in this forum.]---- > >> > >> > >>Lynn. > >>Another view of the TSO puzzle from Bill Biggs. See below > >> > >>John Roach > >>N 2427H > >> > >> > >> RE: [COUPERS-TECH] Answers Re: TSO/Non-TSO > >> > >>WILLIAM BIGGS > >>Fri, 12 Jan 2007 06:08:23 -0800 > >> > >>"5) You may not even need a 337. Those forms address the > >>installation process, NOT the radio itself, and are only needed at > >>all IF the installation involves a "major structural change." > >>Putting the radio into an existing hole, or hanging it beneath the > >>panel does NOT need a 337. Similarly, if you're putting a new > >>antenna into an existing antenna mount location, its not a "major > >>structural change," therefore no 337 needed. " > >> > >>Not true. Example: If you change from your cessna radio to a > >>Michael. It goes in exactly the same location but we all know they > >>require a 337. Hanging an additional radio beneath the panel > >>constitutes a change in weight and ballance however small and must > >>be recorded. > >> > >>337s now require a provision for "continued airworthiness." > >>Anything that is not in the airframe or engine specifications that > >>is added or changed constitutes a major alteration unless > >>specifically excluded in part 43.1. > >> > >>The following is considered preventative maint and is allowed but > >>only of the EXACT type: > >> > >>(31) Removing and replacing self-contained, front instrument > >>panel-mounted navigation and communication devices that employ > >>tray-mounted connectors that connect the unit when the unit is > >>installed into the instrument panel, (excluding automatic flight > >>control systems, transponders, and microwave frequency distance > >>measuring equipment (DME)). The approved unit must be > >>designed to be readily and repeatedly removed and replaced, and > >>pertinent instructions must be provided. Prior to the unit's > >>intended use, and operational check must be performed in > accordance > >>with the applicable sections of part 91 of this chapter. > >>(32) Updating self-contained, front instrument panel-mounted Air > >>Traffic Control (ATC) navigational software data bases (excluding > >>those of automatic flight control systems, transponders, and > >>microwave frequency distance measuring equipment (DME)) provided > no > >>disassembly of the unit is required and pertinent instructions are > >>provided. Prior to the unit's intended use, an operational check > >>must be performed in accordance with applicable sections of part > 91 > >>of this chapter. > >> > >>Appendix A > >> > >>Sec. A43.1 > >> > >>(a) /Major alterations/-- > >>(1) /Airframe major alterations./ Alterations of the following > >>parts and alterations of the following types, _when not listed in > >>the aircraft specifications issued by the FAA_, are airframe major > >>alterations: > >> > >>Bill > >> > >> > >> > >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> > >>>----[Please read http://ercoupers.com/disclaimer.htm before > >>>following any advice in this forum.]---- > >>> > >>> > >>> Hey Gang: Some time ago we had a discussion about TSO'd and > non > >>>TSO'd instrument requirements. As I remember, one of our group > >>>came up with the FAA paragraph's that specifically spelled out > the > >>>use of those items. I saved the message, but unfortunately for > me, > >>>my computer bombed last fall, and I lost all of the saved > messages > >>>before then. > >>> I have reviewed most of last years Tech messages, and did > not > >>>find what I was looking for. Does anyone have the answer? I know > >>>there was considerable discussion about radios. but I am > >>>specifically concerned about instruments. > >>>Lynn > >>> > >>> > >>> > > >>>------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's > >>>free from AOL at *AOL.com* > >>><http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000339>. > > >>>============================================================================= > >>> > >>>To leave this forum go to: http://ercoupers.com/lists.htm > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > >>============================================================================= > >> > >>To leave this forum go to: http://ercoupers.com/lists.htm > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > >============================================================================= > >To leave this forum go to: http://ercoupers.com/lists.htm > > > > > > > > =============================================================================To > leave this forum go to: http://ercoupers.com/lists.htm > > > > > =============================================================================To > leave this forum go to: http://ercoupers.com/lists.htm > > > ============================================================================== To leave this forum go to: http://ercoupers.com/lists.htm
