Bear is having problems in sending to the forum. Until we resolve this, I'll forward his message. Please send private responses to him, [email protected], not to me. Thanks, Ed
_____ From: Lightning Bear [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 10:26 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Fw: Re: [ercoupe-tech] Restriction on Private Pilots Certificate --- On Tue, 1/27/09, Lightning Bear <[email protected]> wrote: From: Lightning Bear <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [ercoupe-tech] Restriction on Private Pilots Certificate To: "William R. Bayne" <[email protected]> Date: Tuesday, January 27, 2009, 3:24 AM Kurt I must agree with WRB. I have been a memeber of the group for a while though mostly silent, exept for an occasional comment. Though only recently gotten my certificate, for me it has been a 30 year process. Maybe Some of my experiences will help in this discussion. I have been around airplanes since I have been knee high to a strut. My Dad now 91 has been flying for 62 years and still going strong. He has recievied the honor of being awarded the Wright Bros Master Pilot Award in 2005 for 50 years of accident free flying and The award of flying with the CAP for 50 years straight. My experieces started with him. Unfortunatly, being a typical young person at the time, i discarded the chance of learning from him, though he had taken me up many times. He learned in an Ercoupe. One last point about my Dad is he is also a top Taildragger pilot. Anyway, the first thing he did teach me then was he said flying is a continous learning experience, no matter what type of certificate you have. As was said here, your certificate is a licence to learn. This has held to this day some 45 years later. Your life and others depends on how you treat yourself and the the plane your are flying, starting with the preflight. Ok enough addages, back to flying. In the middle 70's i decided to learn on my own and began taking lessons at a Piper Flight Center in a Cherokee 140. Though he and I have still a few diffenerces concerning this plane, i found it a very easy and forgiving plane to learn in.. Unforunatly, the business i am in got very busy and having 11 hours in the plane 1 short of solo, i stopped. Anyone with any kind of experience never lose the hours you have had before. Fast forward 30 years. I decided it was time to finish. Now being based in Germany, this was not an easy prospect. After some digging and reseach, i found an American flying club here and one of their instructors agreed to fly with me and give me some lessons in a 172. At this point i was was still not sure if i was going to go with private or with a Sport pilot certificate. I went to see my Dad for a visit after many many years and told him what i was doing. He suggested Sport Pilot. I then went on a seach for an instructor which only a few years ago were few and hard to find. I took a few more hours in Vegas in another 172 and was flying with my Dad in his Ercoupe. I decided to switch solely to the Ercoupe. My Dads plane is 99485 415C. It does have rudder pedals. Here finally are the important part. Though it is getting easier to find Light Sport Insturctors and Examiners it is still difficult to find instructors or Examiners that know Ercoupes. Since the days when the FAA still figured we all weighed only around 170lbs size restraints and weight and balance are now concerns learning in an Ercoupe. Not so bad without rudder peddles if you are tall like i am, but the knees do get a bit tight if you are with them. I am 6'5" and forunately only 170lbs. It was not easy finding an instructor. Finally I was able to find 2 that took me through that phase, both great instuctors that I would recommend to anyone. Another point it was brought up before is that 1 instructor does not fit all people. Each person must do there homework and talk to these people and see how you fit together and if the is a relationship that can be built between the two of you. You have to see how they teach and see if there is a comfort zone that you both can work with. This is also true of the Examiners. I have found that, as others have mentioned, many types of Examiners. You have to talk to them as well. It is true that most instructors have an Examiner they work with, i could be wrong, but i have seen nothings in the regs that the Examiner has to have this type of relationship with an instructor. it is true that the instructor is signing you off because he feels you are ready for the test and has the knowledge and experience. So it would lead one to believe that if both know each other makes it easier, but again as i read it not necessary. Me, I feel I have been very lucky to have been able to find good instructors to work with and a great Examiner for my test. So to finish, take lessons in different types of planes for 3 control experience and possibly to test in especially for light sport and for Ercoupes, i love flying these planes. A last point on Examiners, i do know of 1 case where a student was flunked on his first Exam, because he was 4 inches off the centerline when he touched down. I hope all find this a bit of help and forgive if I rambled a little. As for the comment concerning my Dad, as all can tell I am very proud of this man and what i have learned from him in my life and especially in the last 2.5 years. Bear --- On Mon, 1/26/09, William R. Bayne <[email protected]> wrote: From: William R. Bayne <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [ercoupe-tech] Restriction on Private Pilots Certificate To: "ercoupe-tech" <[email protected]> Date: Monday, January 26, 2009, 9:50 PM Hi Kurt, Your comments appear to compare apples and oranges. Tandy's potential buyer needed more information if he/she was to make an informed decision. My first paragraph was intended as a warning that there remain from the dawn of aviation some examiners who consider passing on of the gift of flight to mere mortals entirely unwarranted and therefore limited to occasional and unpredictable moments of uncharacteristic compassion. I was wrong to omit the occasional CFI that exhibits such an attitude. My wife found my CFI unacceptable, and learned to fly under another. I applaud her decision. One size does not fit all. My second paragraph presumed an Ercoupe owner learning in his own plane that was coming up on his/her check ride and taking Ed Burkhead's advice to do it in a three-control airplane. For someone essentially "ready", this should be a relatively specialized "transitional" instruction solely addressing the difference between abilities the student pilot had already learned and added abilities needed to get through a Cessna 150 or Cherokee check ride with a reasonable expectation of success. Such a person would likely go to a FBO or "flying Club" for a rental. Some of these have familiarization or proficiency requirements that border on punitive. Some don't. Cost is a concern to the student pilot, just as an FBO cannot stay in business renting to the unqualified. I stand by my comments as to anyone in aviation out to "prove something". They are too self centered to offer a simple and unbiased check ride, finding more pleasure in the role of long suffering bully. Learning to fly is a challenging process that should be joyful. A CFI or Examiner with a "hidden agenda" today is an abuser of the instructional process. Nothing more. Instructors very nearly washed out a pilot who went on to become a high-scoring P-51 jockey nicknamed "Gabby" (I can't spell Polish names). The last step of the Instructor's job is to recommend a student for a flight testing ONLY when he/she is properly prepared to pass it. That call is usually before a conservative student believes he/she is ready. The student with good judgment and the instructor are likely to "know" at the same time. Examiners do not receive instruction in or testing for clairvoyance. Every pilot involved in a fatal accident passed one or more flight tests. Their purpose is not to "prove" the confidence of a student's instructor in the student's skills misplaced. The Private Pilot license is a "License to learn" and the qualification is basic proficiency and not a demonstration of expertise without flaw. If check ride candidates endorsed by a competent instructors do not pass 70-80% of the time, likely the students are not the source of the problem. Just my opinions, WRB -- On Jan 26, 2009, at 20:30, [email protected] wrote: > You know, as a CFI, I got accused of milking them for more money. I can think of two pilots in particular. They both went somewhere else, found another instructor, and another examiner, and both got their license. Both are now dead, from airplane accidents. > > You just have to let it roll off your back. Sometimes those "hard asses" are try to cover their ass and yours. > > Kurt > > On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 16:16:39 -0600, William R. Bayne wrote > > Hi Tandy, > > > > It depends on the examiner he would ultimately have. More than a few got their private learning in a coupe and took their check ride in it. I picked my own examiner, and I urge everyone to do so. For a check ride in a 415-C or CD you want a reasonable one that doesn't weigh a lot (females have an advantage). The examiner with a "reputation" for being a hard ass is on an ego trip one indulges only at considerable risk to their pocketbook and confidence. Avoid them. > > > > Much of the transition time "required" to transition from a two-control Ercoupe to a rented Cessna 150 or Cherokee can be "milking the process" by the FBO and/or instructor...it's not that big of a deal, but they make their calculated profit on every hour they sell; and so may be (unreasonably?) conservative in dual time "requirements" before renting for solo flight test use. > > > > Consider also that anyone who gets their "unlimited" license in a Cessna 150 or Cherokee and then tries to hop in a Grumman Yankee without professional help will likely kill themselves on the first flight. The same is true with almost any tail dragger (there is no "tri-gear only" restriction). Similarly, the adverse yaw characteristic of a Taylorcraft makes it a whole different bird in the air than a three-control coupe or Cherokee (and that is most definitely NOT a compliment). > > > > It is more than worthwhile to learn to pilot a coupe well from the right seat, and to keep that skill current. I taught myself on a calm spring day, but having an instructor or competent coupe pilot friend along for the first three touch-and-goes may be a better choice for some. This ability makes it easy to get non-professional competent help before solo flight in an unfamiliar aircraft type from a competent and proficient owner or prior owner. > > > > I would go so far as to say that 99% of the people who learn to fly in a two-control Ercoupe could fly a three-control one without help (if crosswinds were limited to 10 MPH), and could take a check ride in one with one hour of familiarization in it by a knowledgeable instructor. > > > > Is anyone instructing in and/or renting three-control coupes? If so, we need a list kept current. > > > > The better option for a student "cleared for the check ride" by his instructor may be to get "signed off" by his/her instructor for solo flight to and from wherever there is a three-control coupe (AND an acceptable examiner) available. This doesn't have to be local. > > > > The fact that you can't demonstrate recovery from a spin in a coupe on the check ride should mean nothing. ALL possible instruments useful for instrument flight do not HAVE to be in the plane used for an instrument ticket check ride. Instrument proficiency only has to be demonstrated with (minimum) equipment installed. > > > > Does anyone know if a person trains for a Sport Pilot license in a two-control coupe and takes the check ride in it receives a two-control restriction endorsement or not? The endorsement (or lack thereof) on a license does not make a pilot safe. > > > > It is the proficiency of the pilot, and his/her judgment, that makes a safe pilot. Most examiners do not expect perfection. What they do expect is good judgment. They expect the applicant to know their limitations, and stay well within them; and some will pass an applicant who does something wrong, knows it, and demonstrates they can then do it right (not get rattled). > > > > Every newly minted "private pilot" should never cease to expand and polish their minimum skill set to exquisite sharpness in a never-ending quest for perfection aloft. There is much joy, confidence and safety thusly achievable. > > > > Regards, > > > > William R. Bayne > > .____|-(o)-|____. > > (Copyright 2009) > > > > -- > > > > On Jan 26, 2009, at 11:07, Tandy Allen wrote: > > > > >> Guys - A possible buyer of my Coupe wants it to learn to fly in. Would his certificate be restricted to flying Coupes? >> > >> > Tandy > >
