Dennis - you are absolutely right that a compensation is needed and utilities 
*are* willing to pay. The ocmpany where I work participates in a peak load 
reductoin program where the utility can ask to reduce electric consumption on 
peak days, announced a day in advance and resulting in a reward of several 
thousands of dollars (reduction on the electric bill) for actually reducing the 
consumption during those times, compared to normal consumption days. I expect 
that V2G can leverage a similar "peak demand benefit" payment from the utility 
- the biggest thing is how to account for it since there is no infrastructure 
today - you need a "charging" station that measures energy in 2 directoins and 
reports those separately, so that you can be compensated (since you are 
identified through your RF-ID card at the charging station or in case of home 
charger, your account.

With the electric grid it is usually the law of large numbers that allows you 
to rely on a certain part of the total amount of vehicles to be plugged in at a 
certain time - occasionally a particular vehicle may not be present but that 
does not skew the total much, though I expect that the utility wants to 
negotiate a contract where the buses are plugged in during a certain time frame 
(when the school schedule allows obviously)

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation
Email: Private:
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2014 3:20 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school districtsmillion$&power 
the grid

That's true - they already have stabilization.  The question is how is it an
advantage to have part-time stabilization provided by busses (or anything
else, for that matter).  I don't think utilities would be interested unless
they can reduce their costs.  To me, that means building-out less equipment
as demand grows or stuff wears out.  But if the busses are providing part
time, doesn't the utility need to build-out its peak capability?





From: Dennis Miles [] 
Sent: 03 June, 2014 3:06 PM
To: Peri Hartman; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school districts
million$&power the grid


the utilities already have "Peaking Units" for stabilization.

Dennis Lee Miles 

Director   E.V.T.I. Inc.  

E-Mail:   <>

   Phone # (863) 944-9913             

Dade City, Florida 33523




On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 5:39 PM, Peri Hartman via EV <>


Using the busses for grid stabilization makes sense.  My question is how
does that help the utility avoid having its own stabilization system?

That is, while the busses are parked, they are doing some stabilization.
However, when they're out on their route, they aren't.  So, doesn't the
utility have to have its own equivalent capabilities to handle that period?


-----Original Message-----
From: EV [] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water
via EV
Sent: 03 June, 2014 2:19 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school districts
million$&power the grid

V2G is not about draining the battery entirely to keep the grid from
collapsing, but more about short bursts of high power that help stabilize
the grid, comparable to the power needed to brake/accelerate again.
So, even after a vehicle has helped stabilize the grid, its state of charge
will be similar as when it started supporting the grid. In addition, the
battery of the EV chan be charged normally (with brief interruptions for
grid stabilization) so in the course of a day it is no problem to charge
its battery to a preset minimum charge level or to "full".
Of course there is some wear and tear on a pack from grid assistance, but it
is nothing like a full discharge/charge cycle - batteries are much better
capable of handling many short cycle discharge/charge events than full
charge, otherwise the Hybrid vehicles would not get over 10 years of life
from the Hybrid battery packs.
So, the utility should pay for the service, since this avoids their own
installation of grid backup storage, which is not only actually done but
also heavily subsidized with grants if you do install a grid backup system.
So - why not in vehicles?

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation
Email: Private:
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 <tel:%2B1%20408%20383%207626> 

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [] On Behalf Of harry henderson via
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2014 10:53 AM
To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school districts million$
&power the grid

i understand the benefits and savings of using electric bus in stead of
fossil fuels one, but how is feeding the power grid beneficial?

are they using the battery storage as a buffer for peak demand [e.g. noon or
when folks get home after work/school]?  the buses could offer some help
midday, but they would be spent for the afternoon?


Albuquerque, NM
current bike:
current non-bike:

On Tue, 6/3/14, brucedp5 via EV <> wrote:

 Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school districts million$ & power
the grid
 Date: Tuesday, June 3, 2014, 2:06 AM
 Electric school buses that power grid could save school
 districts millions
 May 28, 2014  by Teresa Messmore

 [image  / Trans Tech Bus
 Electric school buses, such as the Trans Tech model shown
 here, could save
 school districts millions if integrated with a
 vehicle-to-grid system,
 according to new research

 Diesel bus alternative
 Electric school buses that power grid could save school
 districts millions

 9:29 a.m., May 28, 2014--Electric school buses that feed the
 power grid
 could save school districts millions of dollars - and
 reduce children's
 exposure to diesel fumes - based on recent research by the
 University of
 Delaware's College of Earth, Ocean, and Environment

 A new study examines the cost-effectiveness of electric
 school buses that
 discharge their batteries into the electrical grid when not
 in use and get
 paid for the service. The technology, called vehicle-to-grid
 (V2G), was
 pioneered at UD and is being tested with electric cars in a
 pilot project.

 Adapting the system for school bus fleets is a logical
 application. School
 buses generally travel distances within electric vehicles'
 battery range,
 and they are not in use for much of the day. Electric school
 buses also do
 not release sooty diesel exhaust, which contains pollutants
 that can cause
 respiratory irritation, lung cancer and heart disease.

 "I see neighborhood kids waiting for and riding school
 buses out my window
 or when walking my dog," said Jeremy Firestone, CEOE
 professor of marine
 policy and director of the Center for Carbon-free Power
 "Electric buses have the benefit of kids not standing
 around or having their
 windows open while diesel fumes are being released."

 For the study, researchers analyzed existing diesel school
 bus routes in a
 mid-sized suburban school district in Delaware and
 calculated the costs and
 benefits of V2G-capable electric bus replacements. Over 14
 years, which is
 the typical lifespan of a bus, a V2G electric bus fleet
 could save an
 estimated $38 million.

 "I was surprised," said study lead author Lance Noel.
 "The savings go
 through the roof."

 The economic research took into account costs associated
 with fuel,
 electricity and batteries, as well as pollution-related
 health care expenses
 and other factors.

 A diesel bus costs $110,000, compared with $260,000 for an
 electric bus
 equipped with a V2G-capable, 70-kilowatt on-board charger.
 Diesel buses have
 an average fuel economy of 6 miles per gallon, including the
 effects of
 idling, and emit soot, ozone, sulfur dioxide, nitrous oxide
 and other
 pollutants. These fumes can be disproportionately higher
 within the cabin of
 a bus compared to surrounding pollution levels.

 Add up diesel gas costs plus the medical expenses to
 society, and the diesel
 bus looks less cost-effective over time. Electric buses
 providing V2G
 services, meanwhile, cover the battery charging and
 additional capital
 investment costs, and in addition generate profits while
 releasing no
 tailpipe pollution.

 Choosing a V2G-capable electric bus over a diesel bus would
 save a school
 district $6,070 per bus seat, or $230,000 per bus over the
 vehicle's 14-year
 lifespan. Even with taking out the medical and climate
 change costs
 associated with diesel pollution, school districts could
 still save $5,700
 per seat.

 "They could save a large amount of money while also
 shifting away from the
 consumption of diesel and enhancing school children's
 health," the authors
 write in the paper.

 There is still a way to go before such V2G-capable school
 buses become a
 reality, however. Electric school buses are uncommon, with
 the first Trans
 Tech all-electric school bus tested in California earlier
 this year.

 While electric school buses can be cost-competitive without
 providing V2G
 services, the V2G technology would produce substantially
 larger savings for
 school districts.

 "The V2G capability is what changes the economics of the
 school bus," said
 study co-author Regina McCormack, who along with Noel is a
 graduate student
 in CEOE's School of Marine Science and Policy.

 The study, titled "A Cost Benefit Analysis of a
 V2G-Capable Electric School
 Bus compared to a Traditional Diesel School Bus," appears
 in the Aug. 1
 issue of Applied Energy and can be viewed online. For more
 contact Lance Noel at or
 Regina McCormack at

 About UD's College of Earth, Ocean, and Environment

 UD's College of Earth, Ocean, and Environment (CEOE)
 strives to reach a
 deeper understanding of the planet and improve stewardship
 of environmental
 resources. CEOE faculty and students examine complex
 information from
 multiple disciplines with the knowledge that science and
 society are firmly
 linked and solutions to environmental challenges can be
 synonymous with
 positive economic impact.

 The college brings the latest advances in technology to bear
 on both
 teaching and conducting ocean, earth and atmospheric
 research. Current focus
 areas are ecosystem health and society, environmental
 observing and
 forecasting, and renewable energy and sustainability.
 Electric School Buses Could Save Millions of Dollars
 May 29, 2014
 Ideal Power: Some Day, An Electric School Bus May Save You
 From A Blackout
 Northern California School District Debuts First
 Solar-Assisted Electric Bus
 30 May 2014

 For all EVLN posts use:
 KS ElectriCITY+EAA+Heartland EV Coalition @
 "We need to teach the electric car to speak Spanish" sez
 Sen. de León
 Volvo to Build Electric Roads
 Yakima Transit wrapping up test of electric bus
 Nissan installs L3 EVSE corridor in Vendee, France
 EVLN: SB1275 would make it cheaper for Californians to buy


 View this message in context:
 Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
 archive at
 For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA

For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA

For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA

For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA 

For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA 

Reply via email to