Peri, That is exactly the "law of the big numbers". If everyone throughout the USA, or even one neighborhood of one town, right now went and turned on every electrical device in their vicinity, the grid would come crashing down in that area. But normally, that never happens. Similar with V2G. If it is just one school with one set of buses, of course the utility cannot rely on those, because when school goes out, all buses can be expected to be unplugged an on the road. But if 100 school buses and 300 employees with EV in a nearby business park are on the same branch of the grid, when school goes out almost all employees will have their car plugged in. When the business closes, all school buses will be plugged in. The trick is to find complementary devices and the larger the population that you average over, the smaller the individual variations become.
Regards, Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -----Original Message----- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2014 4:51 PM To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List' Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave schooldistrictsmillion$&powerthe grid Cor, That makes sense to an extent. However, it doesn't seem reliable enough for a utility since they need to design for a certain worst case. With school busses, when all are on the road for certain periods of time, the utility is left with 0 leveling from the busses during those periods. So, it seems, they would still have to build out for their worst case design, which would not include busses. For a large set of random vehicles, it still doesn't seem reliable enough. There are really wide fluctuations of how many vehicles are on the road. The utilities would have to design for the case, within some probability that matches their existing designs, where the fewest are plugged in. Peri -----Original Message----- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water via EV Sent: 03 June, 2014 4:39 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school districtsmillion$&powerthe grid Dennis - you are absolutely right that a compensation is needed and utilities *are* willing to pay. The ocmpany where I work participates in a peak load reductoin program where the utility can ask to reduce electric consumption on peak days, announced a day in advance and resulting in a reward of several thousands of dollars (reduction on the electric bill) for actually reducing the consumption during those times, compared to normal consumption days. I expect that V2G can leverage a similar "peak demand benefit" payment from the utility - the biggest thing is how to account for it since there is no infrastructure today - you need a "charging" station that measures energy in 2 directoins and reports those separately, so that you can be compensated (since you are identified through your RF-ID card at the charging station or in case of home charger, your account. Peri, With the electric grid it is usually the law of large numbers that allows you to rely on a certain part of the total amount of vehicles to be plugged in at a certain time - occasionally a particular vehicle may not be present but that does not skew the total much, though I expect that the utility wants to negotiate a contract where the buses are plugged in during a certain time frame (when the school schedule allows obviously) Regards, Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -----Original Message----- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2014 3:20 PM To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List' Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school districtsmillion$&power the grid That's true - they already have stabilization. The question is how is it an advantage to have part-time stabilization provided by busses (or anything else, for that matter). I don't think utilities would be interested unless they can reduce their costs. To me, that means building-out less equipment as demand grows or stuff wears out. But if the busses are providing part time, doesn't the utility need to build-out its peak capability? Peri _____ From: Dennis Miles [mailto:dmiles33...@gmail.com] Sent: 03 June, 2014 3:06 PM To: Peri Hartman; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school districts million$&power the grid the utilities already have "Peaking Units" for stabilization. Dennis Lee Miles Director E.V.T.I. Inc. E-Mail: <mailto:evprofes...@evprofessor.com> evprofes...@evprofessor.com Phone # (863) 944-9913 Dade City, Florida 33523 USA On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 5:39 PM, Peri Hartman via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: Cor, Using the busses for grid stabilization makes sense. My question is how does that help the utility avoid having its own stabilization system? That is, while the busses are parked, they are doing some stabilization. However, when they're out on their route, they aren't. So, doesn't the utility have to have its own equivalent capabilities to handle that period? Peri -----Original Message----- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water via EV Sent: 03 June, 2014 2:19 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school districts million$&power the grid V2G is not about draining the battery entirely to keep the grid from collapsing, but more about short bursts of high power that help stabilize the grid, comparable to the power needed to brake/accelerate again. So, even after a vehicle has helped stabilize the grid, its state of charge will be similar as when it started supporting the grid. In addition, the battery of the EV chan be charged normally (with brief interruptions for grid stabilization) so in the course of a day it is no problem to charge its battery to a preset minimum charge level or to "full". Of course there is some wear and tear on a pack from grid assistance, but it is nothing like a full discharge/charge cycle - batteries are much better capable of handling many short cycle discharge/charge events than full charge, otherwise the Hybrid vehicles would not get over 10 years of life from the Hybrid battery packs. So, the utility should pay for the service, since this avoids their own installation of grid backup storage, which is not only actually done but also heavily subsidized with grants if you do install a grid backup system. So - why not in vehicles? Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 <tel:%2B1%20408%20383%207626> -----Original Message----- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of harry henderson via EV Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2014 10:53 AM To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school districts million$ &power the grid i understand the benefits and savings of using electric bus in stead of fossil fuels one, but how is feeding the power grid beneficial? are they using the battery storage as a buffer for peak demand [e.g. noon or when folks get home after work/school]? the buses could offer some help midday, but they would be spent for the afternoon? harry Albuquerque, NM current bike: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179 current non-bike: http://evalbum.com/1000 -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 6/3/14, brucedp5 via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school districts million$ & power the grid To: ev@lists.evdl.org Date: Tuesday, June 3, 2014, 2:06 AM http://www.udel.edu/udaily/2014/may/electric-school-bus-052814.html Electric school buses that power grid could save school districts millions May 28, 2014 by Teresa Messmore [image / Trans Tech Bus http://www.udel.edu/udaily/2014/may/images/ElectricSchoolBus.jpg Electric school buses, such as the Trans Tech model shown here, could save school districts millions if integrated with a vehicle-to-grid system, according to new research ] Diesel bus alternative Electric school buses that power grid could save school districts millions 9:29 a.m., May 28, 2014--Electric school buses that feed the power grid could save school districts millions of dollars - and reduce children's exposure to diesel fumes - based on recent research by the University of Delaware's College of Earth, Ocean, and Environment (CEOE). A new study examines the cost-effectiveness of electric school buses that discharge their batteries into the electrical grid when not in use and get paid for the service. The technology, called vehicle-to-grid (V2G), was pioneered at UD and is being tested with electric cars in a pilot project. Adapting the system for school bus fleets is a logical application. School buses generally travel distances within electric vehicles' battery range, and they are not in use for much of the day. Electric school buses also do not release sooty diesel exhaust, which contains pollutants that can cause respiratory irritation, lung cancer and heart disease. "I see neighborhood kids waiting for and riding school buses out my window or when walking my dog," said Jeremy Firestone, CEOE professor of marine policy and director of the Center for Carbon-free Power Integration. "Electric buses have the benefit of kids not standing around or having their windows open while diesel fumes are being released." For the study, researchers analyzed existing diesel school bus routes in a mid-sized suburban school district in Delaware and calculated the costs and benefits of V2G-capable electric bus replacements. Over 14 years, which is the typical lifespan of a bus, a V2G electric bus fleet could save an estimated $38 million. "I was surprised," said study lead author Lance Noel. "The savings go through the roof." The economic research took into account costs associated with fuel, electricity and batteries, as well as pollution-related health care expenses and other factors. A diesel bus costs $110,000, compared with $260,000 for an electric bus equipped with a V2G-capable, 70-kilowatt on-board charger. Diesel buses have an average fuel economy of 6 miles per gallon, including the effects of idling, and emit soot, ozone, sulfur dioxide, nitrous oxide and other pollutants. These fumes can be disproportionately higher within the cabin of a bus compared to surrounding pollution levels. Add up diesel gas costs plus the medical expenses to society, and the diesel bus looks less cost-effective over time. Electric buses providing V2G services, meanwhile, cover the battery charging and additional capital investment costs, and in addition generate profits while releasing no tailpipe pollution. Choosing a V2G-capable electric bus over a diesel bus would save a school district $6,070 per bus seat, or $230,000 per bus over the vehicle's 14-year lifespan. Even with taking out the medical and climate change costs associated with diesel pollution, school districts could still save $5,700 per seat. "They could save a large amount of money while also shifting away from the consumption of diesel and enhancing school children's health," the authors write in the paper. There is still a way to go before such V2G-capable school buses become a reality, however. Electric school buses are uncommon, with the first Trans Tech all-electric school bus tested in California earlier this year. While electric school buses can be cost-competitive without providing V2G services, the V2G technology would produce substantially larger savings for school districts. "The V2G capability is what changes the economics of the school bus," said study co-author Regina McCormack, who along with Noel is a graduate student in CEOE's School of Marine Science and Policy. The study, titled "A Cost Benefit Analysis of a V2G-Capable Electric School Bus compared to a Traditional Diesel School Bus," appears in the Aug. 1 issue of Applied Energy and can be viewed online. For more information, contact Lance Noel at ln...@udel.edu or Regina McCormack at rmcco...@udel.edu. About UD's College of Earth, Ocean, and Environment UD's College of Earth, Ocean, and Environment (CEOE) strives to reach a deeper understanding of the planet and improve stewardship of environmental resources. CEOE faculty and students examine complex information from multiple disciplines with the knowledge that science and society are firmly linked and solutions to environmental challenges can be synonymous with positive economic impact. The college brings the latest advances in technology to bear on both teaching and conducting ocean, earth and atmospheric research. Current focus areas are ecosystem health and society, environmental observing and forecasting, and renewable energy and sustainability. [© udel.edu] ... http://dailyfusion.net/2014/05/electric-school-buses-28809/ Electric School Buses Could Save Millions of Dollars May 29, 2014 ... http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterdetwiler/2014/05/29/ideal-power-some-day-an <http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterdetwiler/2014/05/29/ideal-power-some-day-a n%0d%0a-electric-school-bus-may-save-you-from-a-blackout/> -electric-school-bus-may-save-you-from-a-blackout/ Ideal Power: Some Day, An Electric School Bus May Save You From A Blackout 5/29/2014 ... http://www.stnonline.com/home/latest-news/6102-northern-california-school-di <http://www.stnonline.com/home/latest-news/6102-northern-california-school-d i%0d%0astrict-debuts-first-full-sized-electric-bus> strict-debuts-first-full-sized-electric-bus Northern California School District Debuts First Solar-Assisted Electric Bus PDF Print E-mail 30 May 2014 For all EVLN posts use: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlSe <http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlS e%0d%0arvlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=evln&sort=date> rvlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=evln&sort=date http://www.kansascity.com/2014/06/01/5060791/congregation-ohev-sholoms-koshe <http://www.kansascity.com/2014/06/01/5060791/congregation-ohev-sholoms-kosh e%0d%0arfest.html> rfest.html KS ElectriCITY+EAA+Heartland EV Coalition @ ohev-sholom.com KosherFest http://ohev-sholom.com/kosherfest-electric-avenue/ http://www.sacbee.com/2014/06/01/6443493/browns-steady-march-to-an-alternati <http://www.sacbee.com/2014/06/01/6443493/browns-steady-march-to-an-alternat i%0d%0ave.html> ve.html "We need to teach the electric car to speak Spanish" sez Sen. de León ... http://www.google.com/#q=Senator+de+Le%C3%B3n http://www.autosphere.ca/fleetdigest/2014/05/27/volvo-electric-roads/ Volvo to Build Electric Roads http://www.yakimaherald.com/photosandvideos/latestphotos/2198325-8/yakima-tr <http://www.yakimaherald.com/photosandvideos/latestphotos/2198325-8/yakima-t r%0d%0aansit-wrapping-up-test-of-electric-bus> ansit-wrapping-up-test-of-electric-bus Yakima Transit wrapping up test of electric bus http://evfleetworld.co.uk/news/2014/May/Nissan-installs-charging-corridor-in <http://evfleetworld.co.uk/news/2014/May/Nissan-installs-charging-corridor-i n%0d%0a-Vendee-France/0438014618> -Vendee-France/0438014618 Nissan installs L3 EVSE corridor in Vendee, France + EVLN: SB1275 would make it cheaper for Californians to buy EVs {brucedp.150m.com} -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-E-school-b <http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-E-school- b%0d%0auses-ave-school-districts-million-power-the-grid-tp4669796.html> uses-ave-school-districts-million-power-the-grid-tp4669796.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. _______________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) _______________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) _______________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) _______________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140603/e90f770e /attachment.htm> _______________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) _______________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) _______________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) _______________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
