Please note that "failure" does not mean that the grid goes down,
but that the local grid goes beyond (typ: below) the voltage or frequency 
limits. This is undesired, but most everyone will not notice a thing.
Also, V2G will not be loaded to their max - again to keep safety so that an 
unexpected lower nr of vehicles only means that each needs to deliver more than 
normal, but still within their capabilities.
Indeed - there is a chance and risk of failure, but it is not as simple as the 
example you gave that suggests that failure rate doubles when you remove half 
the dedicated equipment. The whole business of utilities is based on managing 
this risk of failure (as well as making a profit - except for the explicit 
non-profit ones such as municipal run utilities, for example in Santa Clara 
(city, not county).

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2014 5:29 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses$aveschooldistrictsmillion$&powerthe 
grid

Right.  I think we're agreeing on the theory.  I just think the fluctuation
in loads is substantially more predictable than the number of vehicles
plugged in at any one time.  The problem is more complicated because you can
design for some worst case load spike and be happy with that.  Now combine
that probability with the probability that too few vehicles will be plugged
in at the same time.  You have a situation where failures are more frequent
than with a dedicated leveling system.

For example, you can say I have a 99% chance of meeting all spikes with
dedicated equipment.  Now, you decide to eliminate half of that equipment.
You will get the rest from the V2G.  Let's say that there is a 99% chance
that the V2G can supply the 50% you eliminated.  The result is 0.99 * 0.99 =
about 98%.  So you've doubled your failure rate.

Peri

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water
via EV
Sent: 03 June, 2014 5:16 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses
$aveschooldistrictsmillion$&powerthe grid

Peri,
That is exactly the "law of the big numbers".
If everyone throughout the USA, or even one neighborhood of one town, right
now went and turned on every electrical device in their vicinity, the grid
would come crashing down in that area. But normally, that never happens.
Similar with V2G. If it is just one school with one set of buses, of course
the utility cannot rely on those, because when school goes out, all buses
can be expected to be unplugged an on the road. But if 100 school buses and
300 employees with EV in a nearby business park are on the same branch of
the grid, when school goes out almost all employees will have their car
plugged in. When the business closes, all school buses will be plugged in.
The trick is to find complementary devices and the larger the population
that you average over, the smaller the individual variations become.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2014 4:51 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave
schooldistrictsmillion$&powerthe grid

Cor,

That makes sense to an extent.  However, it doesn't seem reliable enough for
a utility since they need to design for a certain worst case.  With school
busses, when all are on the road for certain periods of time, the utility is
left with 0 leveling from the busses during those periods.  So, it seems,
they would still have to build out for their worst case design, which would
not include busses.

For a large set of random vehicles, it still doesn't seem reliable enough.
There are really wide fluctuations of how many vehicles are on the road.
The utilities would have to design for the case, within some probability
that matches their existing designs, where the fewest are plugged in.

Peri

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water
via EV
Sent: 03 June, 2014 4:39 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school
districtsmillion$&powerthe grid

Dennis - you are absolutely right that a compensation is needed and
utilities *are* willing to pay. The ocmpany where I work participates in a
peak load reductoin program where the utility can ask to reduce electric
consumption on peak days, announced a day in advance and resulting in a
reward of several thousands of dollars (reduction on the electric bill) for
actually reducing the consumption during those times, compared to normal
consumption days. I expect that V2G can leverage a similar "peak demand
benefit" payment from the utility - the biggest thing is how to account for
it since there is no infrastructure today - you need a "charging" station
that measures energy in 2 directoins and reports those separately, so that
you can be compensated (since you are identified through your RF-ID card at
the charging station or in case of home charger, your account.

Peri,
With the electric grid it is usually the law of large numbers that allows
you to rely on a certain part of the total amount of vehicles to be plugged
in at a certain time - occasionally a particular vehicle may not be present
but that does not skew the total much, though I expect that the utility
wants to negotiate a contract where the buses are plugged in during a
certain time frame (when the school schedule allows obviously)
Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2014 3:20 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school districtsmillion$&power
the grid

That's true - they already have stabilization.  The question is how is it an
advantage to have part-time stabilization provided by busses (or anything
else, for that matter).  I don't think utilities would be interested unless
they can reduce their costs.  To me, that means building-out less equipment
as demand grows or stuff wears out.  But if the busses are providing part
time, doesn't the utility need to build-out its peak capability?

 

Peri

 

  _____  

From: Dennis Miles [mailto:dmiles33...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 03 June, 2014 3:06 PM
To: Peri Hartman; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school districts
million$&power the grid

 

the utilities already have "Peaking Units" for stabilization.




Dennis Lee Miles 

Director   E.V.T.I. Inc.  

E-Mail:   <mailto:evprofes...@evprofessor.com> evprofes...@evprofessor.com


   Phone # (863) 944-9913             

Dade City, Florida 33523

 USA                           

 

 

On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 5:39 PM, Peri Hartman via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
wrote:

Cor,

Using the busses for grid stabilization makes sense.  My question is how
does that help the utility avoid having its own stabilization system?

That is, while the busses are parked, they are doing some stabilization.
However, when they're out on their route, they aren't.  So, doesn't the
utility have to have its own equivalent capabilities to handle that period?

Peri


-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water
via EV
Sent: 03 June, 2014 2:19 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school districts
million$&power the grid

V2G is not about draining the battery entirely to keep the grid from
collapsing, but more about short bursts of high power that help stabilize
the grid, comparable to the power needed to brake/accelerate again.
So, even after a vehicle has helped stabilize the grid, its state of charge
will be similar as when it started supporting the grid. In addition, the
battery of the EV chan be charged normally (with brief interruptions for
grid stabilization) so in the course of a day it is no problem to charge
its battery to a preset minimum charge level or to "full".
Of course there is some wear and tear on a pack from grid assistance, but it
is nothing like a full discharge/charge cycle - batteries are much better
capable of handling many short cycle discharge/charge events than full
charge, otherwise the Hybrid vehicles would not get over 10 years of life
from the Hybrid battery packs.
So, the utility should pay for the service, since this avoids their own
installation of grid backup storage, which is not only actually done but
also heavily subsidized with grants if you do install a grid backup system.
So - why not in vehicles?

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 <tel:%2B1%20408%20383%207626> 


-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of harry henderson via
EV
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2014 10:53 AM
To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school districts million$
&power the grid

i understand the benefits and savings of using electric bus in stead of
fossil fuels one, but how is feeding the power grid beneficial?

are they using the battery storage as a buffer for peak demand [e.g. noon or
when folks get home after work/school]?  the buses could offer some help
midday, but they would be spent for the afternoon?

harry

Albuquerque, NM
current bike:  http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179
current non-bike: http://evalbum.com/1000

--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 6/3/14, brucedp5 via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

 Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school districts million$ & power
the grid
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org
 Date: Tuesday, June 3, 2014, 2:06 AM



 http://www.udel.edu/udaily/2014/may/electric-school-bus-052814.html
 Electric school buses that power grid could save school
 districts millions
 May 28, 2014  by Teresa Messmore

 [image  / Trans Tech Bus
 http://www.udel.edu/udaily/2014/may/images/ElectricSchoolBus.jpg
 Electric school buses, such as the Trans Tech model shown
 here, could save
 school districts millions if integrated with a
 vehicle-to-grid system,
 according to new research
 ]

 Diesel bus alternative
 Electric school buses that power grid could save school
 districts millions

 9:29 a.m., May 28, 2014--Electric school buses that feed the
 power grid
 could save school districts millions of dollars - and
 reduce children's
 exposure to diesel fumes - based on recent research by the
 University of
 Delaware's College of Earth, Ocean, and Environment
 (CEOE).

 A new study examines the cost-effectiveness of electric
 school buses that
 discharge their batteries into the electrical grid when not
 in use and get
 paid for the service. The technology, called vehicle-to-grid
 (V2G), was
 pioneered at UD and is being tested with electric cars in a
 pilot project.

 Adapting the system for school bus fleets is a logical
 application. School
 buses generally travel distances within electric vehicles'
 battery range,
 and they are not in use for much of the day. Electric school
 buses also do
 not release sooty diesel exhaust, which contains pollutants
 that can cause
 respiratory irritation, lung cancer and heart disease.

 "I see neighborhood kids waiting for and riding school
 buses out my window
 or when walking my dog," said Jeremy Firestone, CEOE
 professor of marine
 policy and director of the Center for Carbon-free Power
 Integration.
 "Electric buses have the benefit of kids not standing
 around or having their
 windows open while diesel fumes are being released."

 For the study, researchers analyzed existing diesel school
 bus routes in a
 mid-sized suburban school district in Delaware and
 calculated the costs and
 benefits of V2G-capable electric bus replacements. Over 14
 years, which is
 the typical lifespan of a bus, a V2G electric bus fleet
 could save an
 estimated $38 million.

 "I was surprised," said study lead author Lance Noel.
 "The savings go
 through the roof."

 The economic research took into account costs associated
 with fuel,
 electricity and batteries, as well as pollution-related
 health care expenses
 and other factors.

 A diesel bus costs $110,000, compared with $260,000 for an
 electric bus
 equipped with a V2G-capable, 70-kilowatt on-board charger.
 Diesel buses have
 an average fuel economy of 6 miles per gallon, including the
 effects of
 idling, and emit soot, ozone, sulfur dioxide, nitrous oxide
 and other
 pollutants. These fumes can be disproportionately higher
 within the cabin of
 a bus compared to surrounding pollution levels.

 Add up diesel gas costs plus the medical expenses to
 society, and the diesel
 bus looks less cost-effective over time. Electric buses
 providing V2G
 services, meanwhile, cover the battery charging and
 additional capital
 investment costs, and in addition generate profits while
 releasing no
 tailpipe pollution.

 Choosing a V2G-capable electric bus over a diesel bus would
 save a school
 district $6,070 per bus seat, or $230,000 per bus over the
 vehicle's 14-year
 lifespan. Even with taking out the medical and climate
 change costs
 associated with diesel pollution, school districts could
 still save $5,700
 per seat.

 "They could save a large amount of money while also
 shifting away from the
 consumption of diesel and enhancing school children's
 health," the authors
 write in the paper.

 There is still a way to go before such V2G-capable school
 buses become a
 reality, however. Electric school buses are uncommon, with
 the first Trans
 Tech all-electric school bus tested in California earlier
 this year.

 While electric school buses can be cost-competitive without
 providing V2G
 services, the V2G technology would produce substantially
 larger savings for
 school districts.

 "The V2G capability is what changes the economics of the
 school bus," said
 study co-author Regina McCormack, who along with Noel is a
 graduate student
 in CEOE's School of Marine Science and Policy.

 The study, titled "A Cost Benefit Analysis of a
 V2G-Capable Electric School
 Bus compared to a Traditional Diesel School Bus," appears
 in the Aug. 1
 issue of Applied Energy and can be viewed online. For more
 information,
 contact Lance Noel at ln...@udel.edu or
 Regina McCormack at
 rmcco...@udel.edu.

 About UD's College of Earth, Ocean, and Environment

 UD's College of Earth, Ocean, and Environment (CEOE)
 strives to reach a
 deeper understanding of the planet and improve stewardship
 of environmental
 resources. CEOE faculty and students examine complex
 information from
 multiple disciplines with the knowledge that science and
 society are firmly
 linked and solutions to environmental challenges can be
 synonymous with
 positive economic impact.

 The college brings the latest advances in technology to bear
 on both
 teaching and conducting ocean, earth and atmospheric
 research. Current focus
 areas are ecosystem health and society, environmental
 observing and
 forecasting, and renewable energy and sustainability.
 [© udel.edu]
 ...
 http://dailyfusion.net/2014/05/electric-school-buses-28809/
 Electric School Buses Could Save Millions of Dollars
 May 29, 2014
 ...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterdetwiler/2014/05/29/ideal-power-some-day-an
<http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterdetwiler/2014/05/29/ideal-power-some-day-a
n%0d%0a-electric-school-bus-may-save-you-from-a-blackout/> 
-electric-school-bus-may-save-you-from-a-blackout/
 Ideal Power: Some Day, An Electric School Bus May Save You
 From A Blackout
 5/29/2014
 ...

http://www.stnonline.com/home/latest-news/6102-northern-california-school-di
<http://www.stnonline.com/home/latest-news/6102-northern-california-school-d
i%0d%0astrict-debuts-first-full-sized-electric-bus> 
strict-debuts-first-full-sized-electric-bus
 Northern California School District Debuts First
 Solar-Assisted Electric Bus
 PDF       
 Print       
 E-mail   
 30 May 2014




 For all EVLN posts use:

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlSe
<http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlS
e%0d%0arvlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=evln&sort=date> 
rvlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=evln&sort=date


http://www.kansascity.com/2014/06/01/5060791/congregation-ohev-sholoms-koshe
<http://www.kansascity.com/2014/06/01/5060791/congregation-ohev-sholoms-kosh
e%0d%0arfest.html> 
rfest.html
 KS ElectriCITY+EAA+Heartland EV Coalition @ ohev-sholom.com
 KosherFest
 http://ohev-sholom.com/kosherfest-electric-avenue/


http://www.sacbee.com/2014/06/01/6443493/browns-steady-march-to-an-alternati
<http://www.sacbee.com/2014/06/01/6443493/browns-steady-march-to-an-alternat
i%0d%0ave.html> 
ve.html
 "We need to teach the electric car to speak Spanish" sez
 Sen. de León
 ...
 http://www.google.com/#q=Senator+de+Le%C3%B3n

 http://www.autosphere.ca/fleetdigest/2014/05/27/volvo-electric-roads/
 Volvo to Build Electric Roads


http://www.yakimaherald.com/photosandvideos/latestphotos/2198325-8/yakima-tr
<http://www.yakimaherald.com/photosandvideos/latestphotos/2198325-8/yakima-t
r%0d%0aansit-wrapping-up-test-of-electric-bus> 
ansit-wrapping-up-test-of-electric-bus
 Yakima Transit wrapping up test of electric bus


http://evfleetworld.co.uk/news/2014/May/Nissan-installs-charging-corridor-in
<http://evfleetworld.co.uk/news/2014/May/Nissan-installs-charging-corridor-i
n%0d%0a-Vendee-France/0438014618> 
-Vendee-France/0438014618
 Nissan installs L3 EVSE corridor in Vendee, France
 +
 EVLN: SB1275 would make it cheaper for Californians to buy
 EVs


 {brucedp.150m.com}



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