I'd like to add a few points. There is a lot of discussion about 'utilities' in this thread and there are a few important structural issue that must be recognized.
Most people and businesses in the US are located in areas where the 'Utility' is technically only delivering electric energy. Regional Transmission Organizations or Independent System Operators administer wholesale market for energy, operating reserve capacity, as well as frequency regulation. Power producers own the generating stations, and the RTO/ISO Governs when any particular generations resource will operate and at what level. The RTO is responsible for making sure there is sufficient reserve capacity available (un loaded generation) so that supply and demand can be balanced within 10 or 30 minutes WITHOUT relying on 'unscheduled' imports for neighboring balancing authorities. Frequency regulation is a separate 'product' that some generating resources can provide. It basically allows the RTO/ISO to increase or decrease the output of a resources ever 5 seconds or so. I have heard that one V2G model involves allowing the charging EVSE to provide frequency regulation by rapidly interrupting the charge to create the same effect as moving a generator up or down. If there are not enough V2G resources available the RTO/ISO pays some other resource to provide regulation service. I believe most new Natural Gas facility are technically capable of providing reserve, it they install the necessary communications infrastructure. Getting back to the utility, they are required to be the default generation service provider for customers that choose not to enter a contract with a competitive supplier. Most State Regulators preclude the distribution utility from owning generation, so they either sign contracts with Power Producers or buy from the wholesale markets. Under the current Federal Regulations it's not clear to me how a distribution utility could make any money off of V2G because operating reserve and frequency regulation are wholesale energy products that are subject to FERC regulation and I don't believe utility owned V2G could be operated by a Distribution Utility. John > On Jun 3, 2014, at 9:06 PM, Cor van de Water via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: > > Please note that "failure" does not mean that the grid goes down, > but that the local grid goes beyond (typ: below) the voltage or frequency > limits. This is undesired, but most everyone will not notice a thing. > Also, V2G will not be loaded to their max - again to keep safety so that an > unexpected lower nr of vehicles only means that each needs to deliver more > than normal, but still within their capabilities. > Indeed - there is a chance and risk of failure, but it is not as simple as > the example you gave that suggests that failure rate doubles when you remove > half the dedicated equipment. The whole business of utilities is based on > managing this risk of failure (as well as making a profit - except for the > explicit non-profit ones such as municipal run utilities, for example in > Santa Clara (city, not county). > > Cor van de Water > Chief Scientist > Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com > Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info > Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2014 5:29 PM > To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List' > Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses$aveschooldistrictsmillion$&powerthe > grid > > Right. I think we're agreeing on the theory. I just think the fluctuation > in loads is substantially more predictable than the number of vehicles > plugged in at any one time. The problem is more complicated because you can > design for some worst case load spike and be happy with that. Now combine > that probability with the probability that too few vehicles will be plugged > in at the same time. You have a situation where failures are more frequent > than with a dedicated leveling system. > > For example, you can say I have a 99% chance of meeting all spikes with > dedicated equipment. Now, you decide to eliminate half of that equipment. > You will get the rest from the V2G. Let's say that there is a 99% chance > that the V2G can supply the 50% you eliminated. The result is 0.99 * 0.99 = > about 98%. So you've doubled your failure rate. > > Peri > > -----Original Message----- > From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water > via EV > Sent: 03 June, 2014 5:16 PM > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List > Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses > $aveschooldistrictsmillion$&powerthe grid > > Peri, > That is exactly the "law of the big numbers". > If everyone throughout the USA, or even one neighborhood of one town, right > now went and turned on every electrical device in their vicinity, the grid > would come crashing down in that area. But normally, that never happens. > Similar with V2G. If it is just one school with one set of buses, of course > the utility cannot rely on those, because when school goes out, all buses > can be expected to be unplugged an on the road. But if 100 school buses and > 300 employees with EV in a nearby business park are on the same branch of > the grid, when school goes out almost all employees will have their car > plugged in. When the business closes, all school buses will be plugged in. > The trick is to find complementary devices and the larger the population > that you average over, the smaller the individual variations become. > > Regards, > > Cor van de Water > Chief Scientist > Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com > Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info > Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2014 4:51 PM > To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List' > Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave > schooldistrictsmillion$&powerthe grid > > Cor, > > That makes sense to an extent. However, it doesn't seem reliable enough for > a utility since they need to design for a certain worst case. With school > busses, when all are on the road for certain periods of time, the utility is > left with 0 leveling from the busses during those periods. So, it seems, > they would still have to build out for their worst case design, which would > not include busses. > > For a large set of random vehicles, it still doesn't seem reliable enough. > There are really wide fluctuations of how many vehicles are on the road. > The utilities would have to design for the case, within some probability > that matches their existing designs, where the fewest are plugged in. > > Peri > > -----Original Message----- > From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water > via EV > Sent: 03 June, 2014 4:39 PM > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List > Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school > districtsmillion$&powerthe grid > > Dennis - you are absolutely right that a compensation is needed and > utilities *are* willing to pay. The ocmpany where I work participates in a > peak load reductoin program where the utility can ask to reduce electric > consumption on peak days, announced a day in advance and resulting in a > reward of several thousands of dollars (reduction on the electric bill) for > actually reducing the consumption during those times, compared to normal > consumption days. I expect that V2G can leverage a similar "peak demand > benefit" payment from the utility - the biggest thing is how to account for > it since there is no infrastructure today - you need a "charging" station > that measures energy in 2 directoins and reports those separately, so that > you can be compensated (since you are identified through your RF-ID card at > the charging station or in case of home charger, your account. > > Peri, > With the electric grid it is usually the law of large numbers that allows > you to rely on a certain part of the total amount of vehicles to be plugged > in at a certain time - occasionally a particular vehicle may not be present > but that does not skew the total much, though I expect that the utility > wants to negotiate a contract where the buses are plugged in during a > certain time frame (when the school schedule allows obviously) > Regards, > > Cor van de Water > Chief Scientist > Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com > Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info > Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2014 3:20 PM > To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List' > Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school districtsmillion$&power > the grid > > That's true - they already have stabilization. The question is how is it an > advantage to have part-time stabilization provided by busses (or anything > else, for that matter). I don't think utilities would be interested unless > they can reduce their costs. To me, that means building-out less equipment > as demand grows or stuff wears out. But if the busses are providing part > time, doesn't the utility need to build-out its peak capability? > > > > Peri > > > > _____ > > From: Dennis Miles [mailto:dmiles33...@gmail.com] > Sent: 03 June, 2014 3:06 PM > To: Peri Hartman; Electric Vehicle Discussion List > Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school districts > million$&power the grid > > > > the utilities already have "Peaking Units" for stabilization. > > > > > Dennis Lee Miles > > Director E.V.T.I. Inc. > > E-Mail: <mailto:evprofes...@evprofessor.com> evprofes...@evprofessor.com > > > Phone # (863) 944-9913 > > Dade City, Florida 33523 > > USA > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 5:39 PM, Peri Hartman via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> > wrote: > > Cor, > > Using the busses for grid stabilization makes sense. My question is how > does that help the utility avoid having its own stabilization system? > > That is, while the busses are parked, they are doing some stabilization. > However, when they're out on their route, they aren't. So, doesn't the > utility have to have its own equivalent capabilities to handle that period? > > Peri > > > -----Original Message----- > From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water > via EV > Sent: 03 June, 2014 2:19 PM > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List > Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school districts > million$&power the grid > > V2G is not about draining the battery entirely to keep the grid from > collapsing, but more about short bursts of high power that help stabilize > the grid, comparable to the power needed to brake/accelerate again. > So, even after a vehicle has helped stabilize the grid, its state of charge > will be similar as when it started supporting the grid. In addition, the > battery of the EV chan be charged normally (with brief interruptions for > grid stabilization) so in the course of a day it is no problem to charge > its battery to a preset minimum charge level or to "full". > Of course there is some wear and tear on a pack from grid assistance, but it > is nothing like a full discharge/charge cycle - batteries are much better > capable of handling many short cycle discharge/charge events than full > charge, otherwise the Hybrid vehicles would not get over 10 years of life > from the Hybrid battery packs. > So, the utility should pay for the service, since this avoids their own > installation of grid backup storage, which is not only actually done but > also heavily subsidized with grants if you do install a grid backup system. > So - why not in vehicles? > > Cor van de Water > Chief Scientist > Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com > Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info > Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 <tel:%2B1%20408%20383%207626> > > > -----Original Message----- > From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of harry henderson via > EV > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2014 10:53 AM > To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List > Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school districts million$ > &power the grid > > i understand the benefits and savings of using electric bus in stead of > fossil fuels one, but how is feeding the power grid beneficial? > > are they using the battery storage as a buffer for peak demand [e.g. noon or > when folks get home after work/school]? the buses could offer some help > midday, but they would be spent for the afternoon? > > harry > > Albuquerque, NM > current bike: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179 > current non-bike: http://evalbum.com/1000 > > -------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 6/3/14, brucedp5 via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: > > Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: E-school-buses $ave school districts million$ & power > the grid > To: ev@lists.evdl.org > Date: Tuesday, June 3, 2014, 2:06 AM > > > > http://www.udel.edu/udaily/2014/may/electric-school-bus-052814.html > Electric school buses that power grid could save school > districts millions > May 28, 2014 by Teresa Messmore > > [image / Trans Tech Bus > http://www.udel.edu/udaily/2014/may/images/ElectricSchoolBus.jpg > Electric school buses, such as the Trans Tech model shown > here, could save > school districts millions if integrated with a > vehicle-to-grid system, > according to new research > ] > > Diesel bus alternative > Electric school buses that power grid could save school > districts millions > > 9:29 a.m., May 28, 2014--Electric school buses that feed the > power grid > could save school districts millions of dollars - and > reduce children's > exposure to diesel fumes - based on recent research by the > University of > Delaware's College of Earth, Ocean, and Environment > (CEOE). > > A new study examines the cost-effectiveness of electric > school buses that > discharge their batteries into the electrical grid when not > in use and get > paid for the service. The technology, called vehicle-to-grid > (V2G), was > pioneered at UD and is being tested with electric cars in a > pilot project. > > Adapting the system for school bus fleets is a logical > application. School > buses generally travel distances within electric vehicles' > battery range, > and they are not in use for much of the day. Electric school > buses also do > not release sooty diesel exhaust, which contains pollutants > that can cause > respiratory irritation, lung cancer and heart disease. > > "I see neighborhood kids waiting for and riding school > buses out my window > or when walking my dog," said Jeremy Firestone, CEOE > professor of marine > policy and director of the Center for Carbon-free Power > Integration. > "Electric buses have the benefit of kids not standing > around or having their > windows open while diesel fumes are being released." > > For the study, researchers analyzed existing diesel school > bus routes in a > mid-sized suburban school district in Delaware and > calculated the costs and > benefits of V2G-capable electric bus replacements. Over 14 > years, which is > the typical lifespan of a bus, a V2G electric bus fleet > could save an > estimated $38 million. > > "I was surprised," said study lead author Lance Noel. > "The savings go > through the roof." > > The economic research took into account costs associated > with fuel, > electricity and batteries, as well as pollution-related > health care expenses > and other factors. > > A diesel bus costs $110,000, compared with $260,000 for an > electric bus > equipped with a V2G-capable, 70-kilowatt on-board charger. > Diesel buses have > an average fuel economy of 6 miles per gallon, including the > effects of > idling, and emit soot, ozone, sulfur dioxide, nitrous oxide > and other > pollutants. These fumes can be disproportionately higher > within the cabin of > a bus compared to surrounding pollution levels. > > Add up diesel gas costs plus the medical expenses to > society, and the diesel > bus looks less cost-effective over time. Electric buses > providing V2G > services, meanwhile, cover the battery charging and > additional capital > investment costs, and in addition generate profits while > releasing no > tailpipe pollution. > > Choosing a V2G-capable electric bus over a diesel bus would > save a school > district $6,070 per bus seat, or $230,000 per bus over the > vehicle's 14-year > lifespan. Even with taking out the medical and climate > change costs > associated with diesel pollution, school districts could > still save $5,700 > per seat. > > "They could save a large amount of money while also > shifting away from the > consumption of diesel and enhancing school children's > health," the authors > write in the paper. > > There is still a way to go before such V2G-capable school > buses become a > reality, however. Electric school buses are uncommon, with > the first Trans > Tech all-electric school bus tested in California earlier > this year. > > While electric school buses can be cost-competitive without > providing V2G > services, the V2G technology would produce substantially > larger savings for > school districts. > > "The V2G capability is what changes the economics of the > school bus," said > study co-author Regina McCormack, who along with Noel is a > graduate student > in CEOE's School of Marine Science and Policy. > > The study, titled "A Cost Benefit Analysis of a > V2G-Capable Electric School > Bus compared to a Traditional Diesel School Bus," appears > in the Aug. 1 > issue of Applied Energy and can be viewed online. For more > information, > contact Lance Noel at ln...@udel.edu or > Regina McCormack at > rmcco...@udel.edu. > > About UD's College of Earth, Ocean, and Environment > > UD's College of Earth, Ocean, and Environment (CEOE) > strives to reach a > deeper understanding of the planet and improve stewardship > of environmental > resources. CEOE faculty and students examine complex > information from > multiple disciplines with the knowledge that science and > society are firmly > linked and solutions to environmental challenges can be > synonymous with > positive economic impact. > > The college brings the latest advances in technology to bear > on both > teaching and conducting ocean, earth and atmospheric > research. Current focus > areas are ecosystem health and society, environmental > observing and > forecasting, and renewable energy and sustainability. > [© udel.edu] > ... > http://dailyfusion.net/2014/05/electric-school-buses-28809/ > Electric School Buses Could Save Millions of Dollars > May 29, 2014 > ... > > http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterdetwiler/2014/05/29/ideal-power-some-day-an > <http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterdetwiler/2014/05/29/ideal-power-some-day-a > n%0d%0a-electric-school-bus-may-save-you-from-a-blackout/> > -electric-school-bus-may-save-you-from-a-blackout/ > Ideal Power: Some Day, An Electric School Bus May Save You > From A Blackout > 5/29/2014 > ... > > http://www.stnonline.com/home/latest-news/6102-northern-california-school-di > <http://www.stnonline.com/home/latest-news/6102-northern-california-school-d > i%0d%0astrict-debuts-first-full-sized-electric-bus> > strict-debuts-first-full-sized-electric-bus > Northern California School District Debuts First > Solar-Assisted Electric Bus > PDF > Print > E-mail > 30 May 2014 > > > > > For all EVLN posts use: > > http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlSe > <http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlS > e%0d%0arvlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=evln&sort=date> > rvlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=evln&sort=date > > > http://www.kansascity.com/2014/06/01/5060791/congregation-ohev-sholoms-koshe > <http://www.kansascity.com/2014/06/01/5060791/congregation-ohev-sholoms-kosh > e%0d%0arfest.html> > rfest.html > KS ElectriCITY+EAA+Heartland EV Coalition @ ohev-sholom.com > KosherFest > http://ohev-sholom.com/kosherfest-electric-avenue/ > > > http://www.sacbee.com/2014/06/01/6443493/browns-steady-march-to-an-alternati > <http://www.sacbee.com/2014/06/01/6443493/browns-steady-march-to-an-alternat > i%0d%0ave.html> > ve.html > "We need to teach the electric car to speak Spanish" sez > Sen. de León > ... > http://www.google.com/#q=Senator+de+Le%C3%B3n > > http://www.autosphere.ca/fleetdigest/2014/05/27/volvo-electric-roads/ > Volvo to Build Electric Roads > > > http://www.yakimaherald.com/photosandvideos/latestphotos/2198325-8/yakima-tr > <http://www.yakimaherald.com/photosandvideos/latestphotos/2198325-8/yakima-t > r%0d%0aansit-wrapping-up-test-of-electric-bus> > ansit-wrapping-up-test-of-electric-bus > Yakima Transit wrapping up test of electric bus > > > http://evfleetworld.co.uk/news/2014/May/Nissan-installs-charging-corridor-in > <http://evfleetworld.co.uk/news/2014/May/Nissan-installs-charging-corridor-i > n%0d%0a-Vendee-France/0438014618> > -Vendee-France/0438014618 > Nissan installs L3 EVSE corridor in Vendee, France > + > EVLN: SB1275 would make it cheaper for Californians to buy > EVs > > > {brucedp.150m.com} > > > > -- > View this message in context: > http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-E-school-b > <http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-E-school- > b%0d%0auses-ave-school-districts-million-power-the-grid-tp4669796.html> > uses-ave-school-districts-million-power-the-grid-tp4669796.html > Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list > archive at Nabble.com. > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use 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_______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > > > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > 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