"It is just not feasible to meet clean air requirements with just
battery electrics."
- this is news to me. Care to elaborate?
I always thought that between BEV and plug-in HEV we would be in good
shape.
Just the other day I looked at the MPG display of my Prius (which is not
even plug-in) and saw to my amazement that we are beating EPA rating by
getting 48.5 MPG over 6,000 miles of mixed driving (and that in a 2002).

Did someone with vested interests write something into the law that only
one solution is capable of meeting? Inquiring minds like to know.

Thanks,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Abramowitz [mailto:ma...@enviropolicy.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 5:53 PM
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts

There are a number of you that think that this is a technology food
fight. It's not. Any food fight is one way, and fortunately you're just
shouting into your own echo chamber.

That's a good thing, because despite the ignorance being espoused (much
like I hear from the climate change deniers), we are in trouble unless
fuel cells are successful. It is just not feasible to meet clean air
requirements with just battery electrics. Sorry, but it's true. Anyone
with any air quality planning competence will tell you that. And even
with fuel cells, there still exists a major challenge.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 25, 2014, at 5:26 PM, Cor van de Water via EV
<ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> 
> Mark,
> Are the laws of Physics different in California?
> It is simply be design and following science that tells us that
> Hydrogen powered cars will never be cost-effective.
> Of course, a state can set up a grande grant-scheme and create
> an artificially unbalanced market that will collapse as soon as
> the money runs out or voters get fed up with the money being
> poured into a fallacy that is not sustainable.
> EVs have proven to be sustainable and efficient, they are 
> subsidized via tax breaks to sweeten the deal and ramp up
> the market faster. But the Physics of a BEV tells us that it is
> efficient and effective. Limited, maybe but good enough for
> about 95% of most people's trips.
> 
> The situation is quite different for FCV and that is why even
> organizations that promote Fuel Cell development have pulled out of
> the unsustainable Hydrogen Fuel Cell development. (Except those that
> are more interested in grants than in practical applications and
> progress)
> We will see where Toyota lands, time will tell.
> 
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
> Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Mark
Abramowitz
> via EV
> Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 5:17 PM
> To: Peter Eckhoff; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts
> 
> Sorry, finger slipped before I was done.
> 
> **************
> 
> Sounds like a very old analysis.
> 
> Toyota will be selling their cars in California, which should be your
> first clue. BEV have had (and still do) their own challenges, too. But
> it's just not productive to focus on those as have all the "negative
> Nellies" for decades. I've heard over 30 years of "can't, can't,
can't"
> about electric drive vehicles of all types. 
> 
> In the 80's, the agencies were saying that, too. They also said
"can't,
> can't, can't" about cleaning up the air any further. So they got sued
in
> federal court by a private citizen, who, to make a long story short,
> won. 
> 
> The air was supposed to get better until the early 90's, and then get
> worse due to growth. Check out the timing of clean air progress since
> the 80's, and also look at when the ZEV mandate was originally
adopted.
> 
> So, do you want some cheese to go with your w(h)ine?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>>> On Jun 25, 2014, at 3:48 PM, Peter Eckhoff via EV
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
>> wrote:
>> 
>> AC Propulsion had a Power Point slide where they compared the
> efficiency of various "fuels".  Their standard was an EV with the
> equivalent of 50 MPG.  A similar vehicle, powered by hydrogen produced
> from reformatted natural gas and fed into a fuel cell, was the
> equivalent of 30 mpg while hydrogen produced by electrolysis was the
> equivalent of 12 mpg.
>> 
>> There a number of technical problems with fuel cells:
>> 1) A fuel cell life expectancy was about 2,000 hours.  Since my
> average driving speed is 30 mpg, I would have to replace my fuel cell
> every 60K miles.  Therefore, a different fuel cell construction
> technique would have to be used.
>> 2) A pack of battery or electrolytic capacitors or an ICE was needed
> to aid in acceleration.  Therefore, a faster way of transferring the
> "proton" through the electrolyte is needed.  Think of a proton as a
> person needed to run through air as opposed through water or molasses.
>> 3) The storage of hydrogen to go 300 miles in a Toyota Camry needed 3
> specially carbon wound tanks where the internal pressures reached 700
> bar.  A bar is 14.7 pounds per square inch.  This equates to 5 tons
per
> square inch in a "2 ton" vehicle.  Catastrophic failures would be
> catastrophic.  The hydrogen, therefore, needs to be stored in a
> molecular sponge where the hydrogen freely flows in and out of storage
> without much energy inducements.  One real scheme required 800 degree
> Fahrenheit temperatures to release the hydrogen from storage.
>> 
>> Given the number of technical problems that need to be solved, I
don't
> see hydrogen fuel celled vehicles coming into common use anytime soon.
>> 
>> 
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