I believe Musk has only slammed H2 in the context of EVs.  There certainly
is a great public misunderstanding that H2 can be a source of energy which
it absolutely is not, rather than its true role as a storage and transport
medium. I suspect this misunderstanding gave momentum to Toyota's decision
to work on HFCVs.

A colleague of mine did a very nice proposal for his masters project in
mechanical engineering, he was exploring how could we store renewable
energy to smooth out its circadian oscillations and not waste its
potential.  He was trying to do this at a continental or global scale.

I will also note that he had no ax to grind or prejudice.  He was an early
adopter of EVs, buying a 1st generation Leaf back when nobody did stuff
like that east of CA and the only Tesla was a Roadster..

He concluded that building enough batteries at this scale was not a
workable solution.  Too much material mined and the resultant ruination of
environment and habitat, etc.

At this scale hydrogen - even given the inefficiencies - looks very good.
You can make really large tanks to store hydrogen, pipe it, and dispense it
with far less collateral damage than with batteries. Once you have it
liquefied you could find some utility for it in vehicles.  But I think it
would be more prominent used as an alternative to damming up rivers for
pump storage, nuclear waste generating plants, digging multitudinous holes
for copper, aluminum, cobalt, manganese, lithium, polyesters for
electrolytes, and plastics for electrode separators,. and so on.  When you
scale up all that battery content it gets very ugly.  It is bad enough the
200 gigafactories needed just for Ev-izing the world, let alone what it
would take to store the rest of the energy that is intermittent in its
production and use.

I won't belabor this further, but it you start adding up the materials
needed and the costs involved H2 starts to have very important advantages.

I do think Toyota is out of phase in their pursuit of hydrogen to power
vehicles, but it isn't a total dufus move.


On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 6:20 AM, brucedp5 via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> https://electrek.co/2017/10/26/toyota-elon-musk-fuel-cell-hydrogen/
> Toyota admits ‘Elon Musk is right’ about fuel cell, but moves forward with
> hydrogen anyway
> Oct. 26th 2017  Fred Lambert
> [image
> https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/
> electric-car-vs-hydrogen-fuel-cell1-e1509049014192.jpg?
> quality=82&w=1024#038;strip=all&w=1600
> https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/hybrid_
> hydrogen_vs_electric_chart-e1461680641695.jpg?quality=82&strip=all
> ]
> For years, Toyota has been betting on hydrogen fuel cell over
> battery-electric vehicles for its zero-emission vehicle strategy. It put
> the
> Japanese automaker behind in the electric transition in the industry.
> Now Toyota admits that Tesla CEO Elon Musk, who called hydrogen fuel cell
> “incredibly dumb”, “is right,” but the company is still heavily investing
> in
> the technology.
> Musk has often publicly commented on his dislike of hydrogen fuel cell as
> an
> energy storage system for vehicles.
> For most people, the physics of fuel cell vehicles make little sense
> compared to battery-powered vehicles.
> Between hydrogen production, distribution, and storage, a fuel cell vehicle
> ends up being just a third as efficient as a battery-powered vehicle
> getting
> its power from the same grid as the electrolysis plant making the hydrogen.
> The entire process is just extremely more complex than a battery-powered
> vehicle.
> The refueling speed is virtually the only advantage of a hydrogen car. You
> can refuel a hydrogen car in about 5 minutes while a battery-powered car
> can
> take hours to charge and even the fastest systems take over an hour.
> But that gap is getting closer every year and hydrogen cars can’t be
> refueled at home, while any electric car can charge overnight.
> That’s the argument that Elon Musk and most EV enthusiasts bring forward
> when comparing the two technologies.
> Surprisingly, Yoshikazu Tanaka, the chief engineer in charge of Toyota’s
> Mirai, admitted to Reuters this week that plug-in cars make more sense:
>     “Elon Musk is right – it’s better to charge the electric car directly
> by
> plugging in,”
> But Toyota chairman Takeshi Uchiyamada adds that they don’t see the two
> technologies competing and that they are not giving up on hydrogen (yet):
>     “We don’t really see an adversary ‘zero-sum’ relationship between the
> EV
> (electric vehicle) and the hydrogen car. We’re not about to give up on
> hydrogen electric fuel-cell technology at all.”
> They want to keep pushing the Mirai, which has been a poor performer. They
> only managed to sell a few as compliance cars in California despite the
> generous incentives.
> Electrek’s Take
> He is not wrong that the two technologies don’t compete. They don’t compete
> in the minds of potential customers, but they compete for investments from
> automakers and those investments lead to further development and production
> for one or the other.
> It becomes clear when you look at automakers who have been heavily
> investing
> in hydrogen cars, like Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai, and see that they have
> become laggers in the EV space.
> The sooner they give up on hydrogen, at least for passenger cars, the
> sooner
> they will be able to divert those billions of dollars in investments into
> battery-electric vehicles. I say passenger cars because Toyota is also
> working on hydrogen trucks, which make better economic sense.
> But for passenger cars, it makes no sense based on efficiency and
> economics,
> which makes it hard to understand why some automakers are still pushing so
> hard for it ...
> [© electrek.co]
> http://www.news18.com/news/auto/hydrogen-fuel-cell-car-
> push-dumb-toyota-makes-a-case-for-the-mirai-1558347.html
> Hydrogen Fuel-Cell Car Push 'Dumb'? Toyota Makes a Case For The Mirai
> October 26, 2017 ... which usually goes to waste when unused, and
> electricity generated by solar and ... “Elon Musk is right - it's better to
> charge the electric car directly by plugging in,” ...
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
>  http://evdl.org/archive/
> {brucedp.neocities.org}
> --
> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
> group/NEDRA)

Michael E. Ross
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