Hey Mark,

I’m not arguing with you! I was trying to relate what I heard Elon say. I could 
be wrong but he seemed to be talking in general not just focused on EVs. We 
used Hydrogen in the Space Shuttle and they even had a Hydrogen fuel cell on 
board but it you notice Space X used RP1. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 31, 2017, at 1:37 AM, Mark Abramowitz <ma...@enviropolicy.com> wrote:
> Inefficient energy storage device? How so? 
> Compared to batteries, they can store energy much longer. Batteries are in 
> their sweet spot for energy storage for a number of hours, hydrogen for 
> longer periods. Batteries are for small scale storage, hydrogen can be used 
> up to grid level storage.
> Musk comments that it's more efficient to directly charge a battery. Maybe 
> that's true, but there are a long list of advantages and disadvantages of 
> hydrogen/battery hybrids AND batteries-only. So use the correct tool for the 
> job. For the auto, it depends what's best for you. To say otherwise is to 
> suggest everyone should buy a compact, or an SUV, or ...
> I think *that's* pretty silly.
> Sent from my iPhone
>> On Oct 30, 2017, at 3:45 PM, paul dove via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>> Actually, Elon said that hydrogen was an inefficient energy storage device. 
>> In addition, it has many technical drawbacks.
>> I just think that they're extremely silly....it's just very difficult to 
>> make hydrogen and store it and use it in a car," Musk said. "If you say took 
>> a solar panel and use that...to just charge a battery pack directly, 
>> compared to split water, take hydrogen, dump oxygen, compress hydrogen...it 
>> is about half the efficiency."
>> He also added that you can't tell when hydrogen is leaking and that it's 
>> extremely flammable. When it catches fire, hydrogen has an invisible flame. 
>> Not to mention hydrogen embrittlement and corrosion.
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> On Oct 29, 2017, at 11:37 AM, Michael Ross via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>>> I believe Musk has only slammed H2 in the context of EVs.  There certainly
>>> is a great public misunderstanding that H2 can be a source of energy which
>>> it absolutely is not, rather than its true role as a storage and transport
>>> medium. I suspect this misunderstanding gave momentum to Toyota's decision
>>> to work on HFCVs.
>>> A colleague of mine did a very nice proposal for his masters project in
>>> mechanical engineering, he was exploring how could we store renewable
>>> energy to smooth out its circadian oscillations and not waste its
>>> potential.  He was trying to do this at a continental or global scale.
>>> I will also note that he had no ax to grind or prejudice.  He was an early
>>> adopter of EVs, buying a 1st generation Leaf back when nobody did stuff
>>> like that east of CA and the only Tesla was a Roadster..
>>> He concluded that building enough batteries at this scale was not a
>>> workable solution.  Too much material mined and the resultant ruination of
>>> environment and habitat, etc.
>>> At this scale hydrogen - even given the inefficiencies - looks very good..
>>> You can make really large tanks to store hydrogen, pipe it, and dispense it
>>> with far less collateral damage than with batteries. Once you have it
>>> liquefied you could find some utility for it in vehicles.  But I think it
>>> would be more prominent used as an alternative to damming up rivers for
>>> pump storage, nuclear waste generating plants, digging multitudinous holes
>>> for copper, aluminum, cobalt, manganese, lithium, polyesters for
>>> electrolytes, and plastics for electrode separators,. and so on.  When you

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