Hydrogen might be useful for grid storage. Looking at roughly 50%
efficiency is a big hit but if you have surplus energy and no other
practical way to store it, H2 is an alternative. Pumped storage, on the
other hand, is estimated to be 70-80% efficient. A better alternative if
you can create lakes at two different levels - or use abandoned mine
caverns. And just building a better grid will help too, so that energy
can be used immediately, even at long distances.
But if you're creating H2 from methane or natural gas to use in an FCEV,
that's silly. Just burn the natural gas in an ICE. More efficient.
Peri
------ Original Message ------
From: "Mark Abramowitz via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
Cc: "Mark Abramowitz" <ma...@enviropolicy.com>
Sent: 30-Oct-17 11:37:28 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are
incredibly dumb
Inefficient energy storage device? How so?
Compared to batteries, they can store energy much longer. Batteries are
in their sweet spot for energy storage for a number of hours, hydrogen
for longer periods. Batteries are for small scale storage, hydrogen can
be used up to grid level storage.
Musk comments that it's more efficient to directly charge a battery.
Maybe that's true, but there are a long list of advantages and
disadvantages of hydrogen/battery hybrids AND batteries-only. So use
the correct tool for the job. For the auto, it depends what's best for
you. To say otherwise is to suggest everyone should buy a compact, or
an SUV, or ...
I think *that's* pretty silly.
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 30, 2017, at 3:45 PM, paul dove via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
wrote:
Actually, Elon said that hydrogen was an inefficient energy storage
device. In addition, it has many technical drawbacks.
I just think that they're extremely silly....it's just very difficult
to make hydrogen and store it and use it in a car," Musk said. "If you
say took a solar panel and use that...to just charge a battery pack
directly, compared to split water, take hydrogen, dump oxygen,
compress hydrogen...it is about half the efficiency."
He also added that you can't tell when hydrogen is leaking and that
it's extremely flammable. When it catches fire, hydrogen has an
invisible flame.
Not to mention hydrogen embrittlement and corrosion.
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 29, 2017, at 11:37 AM, Michael Ross via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
wrote:
I believe Musk has only slammed H2 in the context of EVs. There
certainly
is a great public misunderstanding that H2 can be a source of energy
which
it absolutely is not, rather than its true role as a storage and
transport
medium. I suspect this misunderstanding gave momentum to Toyota's
decision
to work on HFCVs.
A colleague of mine did a very nice proposal for his masters project
in
mechanical engineering, he was exploring how could we store renewable
energy to smooth out its circadian oscillations and not waste its
potential. He was trying to do this at a continental or global
scale.
I will also note that he had no ax to grind or prejudice. He was an
early
adopter of EVs, buying a 1st generation Leaf back when nobody did
stuff
like that east of CA and the only Tesla was a Roadster..
He concluded that building enough batteries at this scale was not a
workable solution. Too much material mined and the resultant
ruination of
environment and habitat, etc.
At this scale hydrogen - even given the inefficiencies - looks very
good.
You can make really large tanks to store hydrogen, pipe it, and
dispense it
with far less collateral damage than with batteries. Once you have it
liquefied you could find some utility for it in vehicles. But I
think it
would be more prominent used as an alternative to damming up rivers
for
pump storage, nuclear waste generating plants, digging multitudinous
holes
for copper, aluminum, cobalt, manganese, lithium, polyesters for
electrolytes, and plastics for electrode separators,. and so on.
When you
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