Hydrogen might be useful for grid storage. Looking at roughly 50% efficiency is a big hit but if you have surplus energy and no other practical way to store it, H2 is an alternative. Pumped storage, on the other hand, is estimated to be 70-80% efficient. A better alternative if you can create lakes at two different levels - or use abandoned mine caverns. And just building a better grid will help too, so that energy can be used immediately, even at long distances.

But if you're creating H2 from methane or natural gas to use in an FCEV, that's silly. Just burn the natural gas in an ICE. More efficient.


------ Original Message ------
From: "Mark Abramowitz via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
Cc: "Mark Abramowitz" <ma...@enviropolicy.com>
Sent: 30-Oct-17 11:37:28 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb

Inefficient energy storage device? How so?

Compared to batteries, they can store energy much longer. Batteries are in their sweet spot for energy storage for a number of hours, hydrogen for longer periods. Batteries are for small scale storage, hydrogen can be used up to grid level storage.

Musk comments that it's more efficient to directly charge a battery. Maybe that's true, but there are a long list of advantages and disadvantages of hydrogen/battery hybrids AND batteries-only. So use the correct tool for the job. For the auto, it depends what's best for you. To say otherwise is to suggest everyone should buy a compact, or an SUV, or ...

I think *that's* pretty silly.

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 30, 2017, at 3:45 PM, paul dove via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

Actually, Elon said that hydrogen was an inefficient energy storage device. In addition, it has many technical drawbacks.

I just think that they're extremely silly....it's just very difficult to make hydrogen and store it and use it in a car," Musk said. "If you say took a solar panel and use that...to just charge a battery pack directly, compared to split water, take hydrogen, dump oxygen, compress hydrogen...it is about half the efficiency."

He also added that you can't tell when hydrogen is leaking and that it's extremely flammable. When it catches fire, hydrogen has an invisible flame.

Not to mention hydrogen embrittlement and corrosion.

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 29, 2017, at 11:37 AM, Michael Ross via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

I believe Musk has only slammed H2 in the context of EVs. There certainly is a great public misunderstanding that H2 can be a source of energy which it absolutely is not, rather than its true role as a storage and transport medium. I suspect this misunderstanding gave momentum to Toyota's decision
to work on HFCVs.

A colleague of mine did a very nice proposal for his masters project in
mechanical engineering, he was exploring how could we store renewable
energy to smooth out its circadian oscillations and not waste its
potential. He was trying to do this at a continental or global scale.

I will also note that he had no ax to grind or prejudice. He was an early adopter of EVs, buying a 1st generation Leaf back when nobody did stuff
like that east of CA and the only Tesla was a Roadster..

He concluded that building enough batteries at this scale was not a
workable solution. Too much material mined and the resultant ruination of
environment and habitat, etc.

At this scale hydrogen - even given the inefficiencies - looks very good. You can make really large tanks to store hydrogen, pipe it, and dispense it
with far less collateral damage than with batteries. Once you have it
liquefied you could find some utility for it in vehicles. But I think it would be more prominent used as an alternative to damming up rivers for pump storage, nuclear waste generating plants, digging multitudinous holes
for copper, aluminum, cobalt, manganese, lithium, polyesters for
electrolytes, and plastics for electrode separators,. and so on. When you
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