I certainly concur with your analysis: fuel cells are not a good option for
cars, but large scale energy storage is a much more likely possibility

On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 9:37 AM, Michael Ross via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
wrote:

> I believe Musk has only slammed H2 in the context of EVs.  There certainly
> is a great public misunderstanding that H2 can be a source of energy which
> it absolutely is not, rather than its true role as a storage and transport
> medium. I suspect this misunderstanding gave momentum to Toyota's decision
> to work on HFCVs.
>
> A colleague of mine did a very nice proposal for his masters project in
> mechanical engineering, he was exploring how could we store renewable
> energy to smooth out its circadian oscillations and not waste its
> potential.  He was trying to do this at a continental or global scale.
>
> I will also note that he had no ax to grind or prejudice.  He was an early
> adopter of EVs, buying a 1st generation Leaf back when nobody did stuff
> like that east of CA and the only Tesla was a Roadster..
>
> He concluded that building enough batteries at this scale was not a
> workable solution.  Too much material mined and the resultant ruination of
> environment and habitat, etc.
>
> At this scale hydrogen - even given the inefficiencies - looks very good.
> You can make really large tanks to store hydrogen, pipe it, and dispense it
> with far less collateral damage than with batteries. Once you have it
> liquefied you could find some utility for it in vehicles.  But I think it
> would be more prominent used as an alternative to damming up rivers for
> pump storage, nuclear waste generating plants, digging multitudinous holes
> for copper, aluminum, cobalt, manganese, lithium, polyesters for
> electrolytes, and plastics for electrode separators,. and so on.  When you
> scale up all that battery content it gets very ugly.  It is bad enough the
> 200 gigafactories needed just for Ev-izing the world, let alone what it
> would take to store the rest of the energy that is intermittent in its
> production and use.
>
> I won't belabor this further, but it you start adding up the materials
> needed and the costs involved H2 starts to have very important advantages.
>
> I do think Toyota is out of phase in their pursuit of hydrogen to power
> vehicles, but it isn't a total dufus move.
>
> BentMIke
>
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 6:20 AM, brucedp5 via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > https://electrek.co/2017/10/26/toyota-elon-musk-fuel-cell-hydrogen/
> > Toyota admits ‘Elon Musk is right’ about fuel cell, but moves forward
> with
> > hydrogen anyway
> > Oct. 26th 2017  Fred Lambert
> >
> > [image
> > https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/
> > electric-car-vs-hydrogen-fuel-cell1-e1509049014192.jpg?
> > quality=82&w=1024#038;strip=all&w=1600
> >
> > https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/hybrid_
> > hydrogen_vs_electric_chart-e1461680641695.jpg?quality=82&strip=all
> > ]
> >
> > For years, Toyota has been betting on hydrogen fuel cell over
> > battery-electric vehicles for its zero-emission vehicle strategy. It put
> > the
> > Japanese automaker behind in the electric transition in the industry.
> >
> > Now Toyota admits that Tesla CEO Elon Musk, who called hydrogen fuel cell
> > “incredibly dumb”, “is right,” but the company is still heavily investing
> > in
> > the technology.
> >
> > Musk has often publicly commented on his dislike of hydrogen fuel cell as
> > an
> > energy storage system for vehicles.
> >
> > For most people, the physics of fuel cell vehicles make little sense
> > compared to battery-powered vehicles.
> >
> > Between hydrogen production, distribution, and storage, a fuel cell
> vehicle
> > ends up being just a third as efficient as a battery-powered vehicle
> > getting
> > its power from the same grid as the electrolysis plant making the
> hydrogen.
> >
> > The entire process is just extremely more complex than a battery-powered
> > vehicle.
> >
> > The refueling speed is virtually the only advantage of a hydrogen car.
> You
> > can refuel a hydrogen car in about 5 minutes while a battery-powered car
> > can
> > take hours to charge and even the fastest systems take over an hour.
> >
> > But that gap is getting closer every year and hydrogen cars can’t be
> > refueled at home, while any electric car can charge overnight.
> >
> > That’s the argument that Elon Musk and most EV enthusiasts bring forward
> > when comparing the two technologies.
> >
> > Surprisingly, Yoshikazu Tanaka, the chief engineer in charge of Toyota’s
> > Mirai, admitted to Reuters this week that plug-in cars make more sense:
> >
> >     “Elon Musk is right – it’s better to charge the electric car directly
> > by
> > plugging in,”
> >
> > But Toyota chairman Takeshi Uchiyamada adds that they don’t see the two
> > technologies competing and that they are not giving up on hydrogen (yet):
> >
> >     “We don’t really see an adversary ‘zero-sum’ relationship between the
> > EV
> > (electric vehicle) and the hydrogen car. We’re not about to give up on
> > hydrogen electric fuel-cell technology at all.”
> >
> > They want to keep pushing the Mirai, which has been a poor performer.
> They
> > only managed to sell a few as compliance cars in California despite the
> > generous incentives.
> >
> > Electrek’s Take
> >
> > He is not wrong that the two technologies don’t compete. They don’t
> compete
> > in the minds of potential customers, but they compete for investments
> from
> > automakers and those investments lead to further development and
> production
> > for one or the other.
> >
> > It becomes clear when you look at automakers who have been heavily
> > investing
> > in hydrogen cars, like Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai, and see that they have
> > become laggers in the EV space.
> >
> > The sooner they give up on hydrogen, at least for passenger cars, the
> > sooner
> > they will be able to divert those billions of dollars in investments into
> > battery-electric vehicles. I say passenger cars because Toyota is also
> > working on hydrogen trucks, which make better economic sense.
> >
> > But for passenger cars, it makes no sense based on efficiency and
> > economics,
> > which makes it hard to understand why some automakers are still pushing
> so
> > hard for it ...
> > [© electrek.co]
> >
> >
> >
> > http://www.news18.com/news/auto/hydrogen-fuel-cell-car-
> > push-dumb-toyota-makes-a-case-for-the-mirai-1558347.html
> > Hydrogen Fuel-Cell Car Push 'Dumb'? Toyota Makes a Case For The Mirai
> > October 26, 2017 ... which usually goes to waste when unused, and
> > electricity generated by solar and ... “Elon Musk is right - it's better
> to
> > charge the electric car directly by plugging in,” ...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
> >  http://evdl.org/archive/
> >
> >
> > {brucedp.neocities.org}
> >
> > --
> > Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
> > _______________________________________________
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
> > group/NEDRA)
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 585-6737 Land
> (19) 901-2805 Cell and Text
> (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Tablet,
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-- 
Larry Gales
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