There are some regulatory drivers here, not just company image or ESG. Companies will need to buy zero emission trucks.
- Mark Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > On Aug 15, 2021, at 11:11 AM, Peri Hartman via EV <[email protected]> wrote: > > This will be interesting to watch. They want a half billion dollars to scale > up, which actually sounds kind of small for the kind of manufacturing they > are planning. I think Tesla invested a lot more than that to start its > Gigafactories and other facilities. Even so, will they be able to generate > enough revenue to pay debt service and keep investors happy. And, the payback > for customers is questionable. While corporations might be willing to pay > more up front for putting on a greener image, it will need to pay off in the > long run. Theoretically it seems it should - all the arguments for EVs should > more or less apply: little fuel used while idling, far less drive train > maintenance, presumably lower fuel costs. > > Peri > > << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >> > > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "paul dove via EV" <[email protected]> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]> > Cc: "paul dove" <[email protected]>; "EVDL Administrator" <[email protected]> > Sent: 15-Aug-21 05:43:24 > Subject: Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all > >> Hyzon Motors has begun shipping hydrogen fuel cell trucks to customers – >> TechCrunch >> https://www.google.com/amp/s/techcrunch.com/2021/08/11/hyzon-motors-has-begun-shipping-hydrogen-fuel-cell-trucks-to-customers/amp/ >> Interesting startup >> >> >> >> Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone >> >> >> On Sunday, August 15, 2021, 2:58 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> I'm not an expert, just a longtime EV follower, but I think that when it >> comes to road vehicles, hydrogen had its chance and missed it. >> >> In 2001, the limitation on EVs was, and always had been, the battery. In >> 1999, the GM EV1 had had a 26kWh NiMH battery, and the Nissan Altra EV had >> had a 32 kWh lithium ion battery - more than respectable for the time. But >> NiMH was artificially locked out of real world EVs, and both types were >> hideously expensive. For all intents and purposes, in 2001 EV batteries >> were still lead. A typical conversion carried maybe 12kWh of usable >> capacity. >> >> Who here would have guessed then that 20 years hence we'd have production >> EVs at all, much less production EVs with batteries in the 50-100kWh >> capacity range? Who would have thought that 150kW public charging would >> start to appear on main highways, potentially charging a 50kWh battery in 20 >> minutes? >> >> In 2001, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and Hyundai all had concept and/or >> demonstration FCEVs running. The feeble BEV range of the time opened a >> window of opportunity for them. >> >> Honda was the first to US market (California lease only) with the FCX >> Clarity in 2008. Between 2008 and 2015, they leased all of 48. (They now >> have another on offer, but again only in California, for reasons that will >> become clear in a moment.) >> >> After what they did with getting the Prius to market, you'd think that if >> anyone could make FCEVs a success, it would be Toyota. >> >> Toyota put the Mirai FCEV on US offer in 2015 (exactly 6 years ago to the >> day, in fact). It had a fairly impressive per-fillup range of 312 miles. >> >> Unfortunately, that hydrogen fillup cost about $85. And since hydrogen was >> nigh onto unavailable anywhere but in California (even today only 17 other >> states have *any* H2 stations), that was the only state where you could buy >> one - or drive one. >> >> That same year, 2015, you could buy a Tesla Model S 85D with 260+ miles of >> range and fill it up at any supercharger in any state. The S cost more than >> the Mirai did, but the cost of "free" supercharger use for as long as you >> owned it was still built into the price of the car. >> >> 2016 Sales >> >> Toyota Mirai: 1,034 >> Tesla Model S: 29,421 >> >> Now why do you suppose Tesla sold over 28 times as many in 2016? >> >> I have serious reservations about any automaker developing its own fueling >> infrastructure, but the fact is that Tesla built superchargers by the dozens >> and hundreds. How many hydrogen filling stations did Toyota build? >> >> EVs are a HUGE change in vehicle culture. Public charging for them is a >> HUGE investment in infrastructure. >> >> The reality of capitalism is that it resists such changes with all its >> might. Thus it's almost a miracle that we've seen BEVs become more or less >> mainstream, at least in Europe. >> >> A change like that doesn't come along often. TWO of each - BEVs and FCEVs, >> charging service and hydrogen fuel service - just aren't bloody likely to >> develop in one generation, let alone in a decade or two. >> >> BEV public charging is growing fast, and its power is too. BEVs are now >> practical for many drivers, sometimes as an only vehicle. >> >> Hydrogen fueling is barely growing at all. FCEVs still aren't practical >> transportation for anyone outside of a limited region in California. >> >> BEVs have all the momentum, and I just don't see that changing. >> >> Twenty years ago, FCEVs *could* have succeeded, if the manufacturers had >> really wanted them to. But they didn't, so FCEVs missed the road vehicle >> alt-fuel train. I could be wrong, but I don't think there'll be another. >> >> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey >> >> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my >> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt >> >> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = >> I think; therefore, I'm alone in the universe. >> >> -- Vern, "Over the Hedge" >> >> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Address messages to [email protected] >> No other addresses in TO and CC fields >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ >> LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210815/565aa0e9/attachment.html> >> _______________________________________________ >> Address messages to [email protected] >> No other addresses in TO and CC fields >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ >> LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > > _______________________________________________ > Address messages to [email protected] > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > _______________________________________________ Address messages to [email protected] No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
