I absolutely *can* look at grid numbers for renewables for EV's and also tell you that my hydrogen comes from renewables, if you want to look it that way.
My renewable % number comes from data for the *only* place that I can get it - at the pump. I can’t buy it from hydrogen supplied to refineries or other industrial users. On the other hand, your number for EV owners that have solar or subscribe to 100% renewable electricity are only a piece of a very complicated puzzle, as a recent CARB workshop and other surveys and studies have shown. How many of the 84% are primarily charging at home? That varies, even based on the make or model of EV you drive. Are you arguing that they don’t charge elsewhere? Even if the data showed that (unlikely), the data shows that the biggest barrier to buying an EV is lack of infrastructure (according to the California Energy Commission). So is this percentage dropping precipitously as California spends billions in EV infrastructure, as these people now buy BEVs. Add into the mix that 50% of Californians live in multi-unit housing. So are you arguing that most of them have solar or 100% renewable? And maybe more importantly, *when* are people charging? The data shows the peaks are when the grid has the least renewable content. So are those who bought 100% renewable using that entire 11% grid renewables, and the rest using non-renewables during that peak? You really can’t draw a conclusion from the number you cited, even if accurate. And if you want to try, it’s less favorable to your attempt to paint a rosy picture. Also, if you want to talk about efficiency, which really is only one element of a calculation of GHG gases (so why bother), why try to compare a number (real or not) that looks at use of electricity (it’s unclear what losses you include or exclude, so I’ll exclude it to your benefit), and not production and use. That’s what a fuel cell does, it produces the electricity onboard. Lastly, and maybe I’ve buried the headline from my response to Peri, the “dirtiness” in the study comes from increasing the emission estimates in the natural gas supply chain - the same natural gas that is used to charge BEVs! - Mark Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > On Aug 13, 2021, at 8:20 AM, Robert Bruninga <[email protected]> wrote: > > One cannot look just at grid numbers for renewables for EV's any more > than one can claim their > hydrogen comes from renewables. Survey's have shown that 85% of EV > drivers either have solar > or subscribe for 100% renewable electricity. > > Of course, by the same token, it is great that you buy only renewables > generated hydrogen. > But the process is so inefficient that it robs the rest of us of that > renewable energy to elimionae > worse fossil fuel systems. Something near 50% when the cost of > compressing the hydrogen > into a tank is included. FAR from a good idea when renewable electric > generation for cars > from solar wind, and hydro approach 95% efficiency.. > > And the difference between 50% and 95% is not close to 50%, it is > colower to 90% since > the 5% losses at 95% efficiency is TEN times less than the losses at 50% > > bob >> On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 3:31 AM Mark Abramowitz via EV >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Only looking at what you posted, you draw a very false conclusion from the >> data. >> >> You’ve connected fossil hydrogen with that going into a car’s tank. Well, >> yes, you can do that, much like you use fossil gas or coal to produce >> electricity to run a BEV. But most hydrogen in transportation is not >> fossil-derived, and the entire industry is moving towards 100% >> “decarbonized” hydrogen, with most believing that “green” hydrogen will be >> everywhere very soon. >> >> I haven’t looked at the “blue hydrogen” data, so can’t critique it, but the >> use of colors really confusing things because if you are looking for GHG >> impacts, the most direct measure is a CI score. >> >> Many incentives are there in transportation for 100% Renewable H2, and while >> I get 90% renewable hydrogen when I fill my fuel cell electric vehicle (they >> *are* electric), I look at the grid numbers and see renewable numbers of as >> low as 11%, depending on the time of day. The rest is fossil. >> >> So who is putting out more GHGs? >> >> This is the problem with analysis that don’t analyze the real world as most >> would view the data. >> >> - Mark >> >> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone >> >>>> On Aug 12, 2021, at 2:20 PM, Peri Hartman via EV <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> For Many, Hydrogen Is the Fuel of the Future. New Research Raises Doubts. >>> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/12/climate/hydrogen-fuel-natural-gas-pollution.html >>> >>> ... >>> The main stumbling block: Most hydrogen used today is extracted from >>> natural gas in a process that requires a lot of energy and emits vast >>> amounts of carbon dioxide. Producing natural gas also releases methane, a >>> particularly potent greenhouse gas. >>> ... >>> And while the natural gas industry has proposed capturing that carbon >>> dioxide — creating what it promotes as emissions-free, “blue” hydrogen — >>> even that fuel still emits more across its entire supply chain than simply >>> burning natural gas, according to the paper, published Thursday in the >>> Energy Science & Engineering journal by researchers from Cornell and >>> Stanford Universities. >>> ... >>> The researchers assumed that 3.5 percent of the gas drilled from the ground >>> leaks into the atmosphere, an assumption that draws on mounting research >>> that has found that drilling for natural gas emits far more methane than >>> previously known. >>> >>> They also took into account the natural gas required to power the carbon >>> capture technology. In all, they found that the greenhouse gas footprint of >>> blue hydrogen was more than 20 percent greater than burning natural gas or >>> coal for heat. >>> ... >>> Jack Brouwer, director of the National Fuel Cell Research Center at the >>> University of California, Irvine, said that hydrogen would ultimately need >>> to be made using renewable energy to produce what the industry calls green >>> hydrogen, which uses renewable energy to split water into its constituent >>> parts, hydrogen and oxygen. That, he said, would eliminate the fossil and >>> the methane leaks. >>> ... >>> Today, very little hydrogen is green, because the process involved — >>> electrolyzing water to separate hydrogen atoms from oxygen — is hugely >>> energy intensive. In most places, there simply isn’t enough renewable >>> energy to produce vast amounts of green hydrogen. (Although if the world >>> does start to produce excess renewable energy, converting it to hydrogen >>> would be one way to store it.) >>> ... >>> >>> ----------- >>> >>> I'm glad to see this published mainstream. People don't seem to think about >>> the source for hydrogen, only about the the aspect of filling a tank in a >>> few minutes and driving off. Long live EVs !!! >>> >>> Peri >>> >>> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Address messages to [email protected] >>> No other addresses in TO and CC fields >>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >>> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ >>> LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Address messages to [email protected] >> No other addresses in TO and CC fields >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ >> LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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