Le 27-mars-06, à 16:07, 1Z a écrit :

> Bruno Marchal wrote:
>> Le 25-mars-06, à 23:13, 1Z a écrit :
>>> Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>>> Le 25-mars-06, à 19:17, 1Z a écrit :
>>>>>>>> You will miss the consequences of the assumption. All science is
>>>>>>>> based
>>>>>>>> on implicit or explicit assumption, related to (non definable)
>>>>>>>> world-views.
>>>>>>> Almost all science is based on the implicit assumption of a
>>>>>>> "stuffy"
>>>>>>> world view.
>>>>>> No. This is a simplifying methodological assumption, but there is 
>>>>>> no
>>>>>> evidence it is necessary. Few physicists use it.
>>>>> I can assure you that real-life physicsists do use it.
>>>> Give reference please.
>>> Typing "physics matter" into google produces 108,000,000 hits...
>>> http://www.google.co.uk/search?
>>> hl=en&q=physics+matter&btnG=Google+Search&meta=
>>> ...happy reading.
>> Didn't find the reference.
> Every single one of the 108,000,000 hits is about the
> physical strudy of matter.


>> Nor even with "assumption mater". You help
>> me to realize that physicist never assume the existence of primitive
>> matter,
> It was not my intention to "help you realise that". it was my
> intention to get you to see that, as far as they are concerned,
> physicists
> do nothing all day but study matter.

This I already knew. If you define "matter" as what is studied by 
physicist, then I do believe in matter. I guess there is a 
misunderstanding somewhere.

>> nor do they postulate it with the notable exception of
>> Aristotle, and of those moderns who show that a boolean conception of
>> matter is contradicted by the facts and/or the QM theory.
> If a "boolean concept" of matter is wrong , then a boolean concept
> of matter is wrong. That does not mean that matter itself is
> non-existent.

I have never said that matter is non-existent. I say only that matter 
is not a primitive concept. That the existence of matter emerge from 
average of observer/machine points of views.

> If you study something, you are going to make discoveries about
> it, and that will involve disproving some traditonal theories. But
> diproving
> a theory of matter is not disproving matter.

In a nutshell, what I can show you is that IF comp is correct THEN 
matter should emerge from some measure on relative computational states 
(and this is making comp empirically testable).
Only the putative stuffy Aristotelian matter disappears. On the 
contrary, the physical laws (the math of the observable) should be made 
more solid as arising from purely number theoretical relations, as seen 
and glued together by an infinite union of first person point of view.

> Note, BTW, the extreme generality of the concept of matter I am using;
> matter is whatever makes one abstract form, rather than another,
> concretely exist.


>>  In the
>> meantime if you can find a more circumscribed set of references ...
> ?????
> Can you point me to the paper in a journal of botany that definitely
> proves,
> for once and all, that plants exist ?

I have not so much doubt that plants exist, and if you define matter by 
the object study of physicists, I have no problem. I believe in 
fermions and bosons and anyons, and in the moon also. But I take them 
as abstract type of observable things, sometimes with a so much 
specificity relatively to me that indeed for all practical purpose I 
will consider them as token. But both from QM and comp, I hardly 
believe those token are token-identified by any form of "concrete 
stuff". *Primitive* matter is the bullet of both cognitive science and 
physics. It makes unnecessarily complex both mind and matter (and their 

>> Actually I find the word "matter" more vague and ill-defined than
>> consciousness,
> wikipedia defines it as follows
> "Matter is commonly defined as the substance of which physical objects
> are composed."

Such a definition is highly ambiguous, and most interpretations of it 
will depend today of your interpretation of quantum physics.
I can take it as the "grand-mother" definition of matter, quite 
beneficial for handling food and grandchildren, useless to interpret 
EPR or GHZ, ...
With just comp there are still more ambiguities.

> meaning that what you are seeking to deny , that physics utilises a
> concept of matter,
> is not merely true, but tautologously true.

Of course.  I deny only the idea that matter is primitive, or that the 
physical science are necessarily the fundamental science.

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter
>> and I believe the "matter hard problem" is harder than
>> the so-called hard problem of consciousness.
> Hmm. I dare say it's hard for solipsists. That may tell you somehting
> about solipsism.

The falsity of solipsism does not entail the falsity of objective 
And with comp we get, as free gift from its objective idealist theory, 
a glimpse on some different forms of subjective idealist internal views 
shared, in a non communicable way, by collection of distinguishable 

My point is just that if comp (or weaker) is correct then matter is not 
primitive. Mind and matter are modes of arithmetical truth (assuming 
comp-or-weaker). And thanks to computer science and mathematical logic, 
variants and precisions can lead to testable physics.



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