David Nyman wrote:|
George Levy wrote:Not at all. A bidirectional contingency is superfluous. The only relevent contingency is: If the observed event will result in different probabilities of survival for myself and for others observing me, then our perceptions will be different.I understand this way of putting it.Third person perception comes about when several observers share the same perception because they share the same environmental contingencies on their existence. In effect these observers share the same "frame of reference." I see many similarities with relativity theory which I have discussed numerous times on this list in the past. Let's be clear: all these observer have a first person perspective, however this first person perspective appears to be the same across observers, and therefore appears to be *independent* of the observers. This perspective can be called *objective* but we must keep in mind that it is the same only because the frame of reference is the same. Thus the concept of objectivity loses its meaning unless we raise the meaning to a higher level and accept that different observers will predictably see different things, just like in relativity theory different observers may predictably make different measurements of the same object.Again I agree here. In the terminology I've been using, the frame of reference would be communicated in terms of the 'shareable knowledge base', or inter-personal (third person) discourse. What you are saying above seems consistent with Colin Hales' views both on 1-person primacy and the nature of 3-person. Any comments on those? David
Colin Hales remarks seem to agree with what I say. However, I do not deny the existence of a third person perspective. I only say that it is secondary and an illusion brought about by having several observers share the same frame of reference. This frame of reference consists of identical contingencies on their existence.
I have a little bit of trouble understanding your terms: "shared knowledge base" and interpersonal discourse. One way to force your nomenclature and mine to be identical is to say that "share knowledge base" and interpersonal discourse" are completely dependent on physical laws which are completely dependent of the shared contingencies. Thus our basic thinking process is rooted in the physical objects comprising our brain. These physical objects owe their existence to our shared contingencies. Here we are developing an equivalence between mental processes and physical processes. In other words I can imagine any process that the universe is capable of supporting, and it is possible to simulate in the universe any thought process that I am capable of imagining.
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- Re: Are First Person prime? George Levy
- Re: Are First Person prime? David Nyman
- RE: Are First Person prime? Colin Hales
- Re: Are First Person prime? Bruno Marchal