>> If all you have is a bunch of numbers (or 4-20mA current loop >> signals or 1-5V signals) dancing away, and you have no >> a-priori knowledge of the external world, how are you to >> create any sort of model of the external world in the first >> place? You don't even know it is there. That is the world >> devoid of phenomenal consciousness. > > You could say exactly same thing about a bunch of neurons and chemicals. Yet they produce consciousness.
Yes. Neurons and their chemicals do contrive to construct phenomenal scenes. The question to ask yourslef is what is different about their circumstance that this be so? Or better..what is missing from my way of thinking that has me unable to imagine how neuron behaviour can produce such a thing - and what is the difference between that and wired signals, numbers and rules? > >> If humans give you a model. You still don't know what it is about. >> It's just a bunch of rules (when this input does this, do that... >> and so on). None of which is an experience. None of which gives >> you any innate awareness of the external world. > > If you can learn and act you do know what it is about. > You're just making an assertion that none of it is > experience or innate awareness. Hmmm. OK. So you're 'learning', are you? What rules of learning are there and how did you get them? How do you 'know' what appropriate action to take? Rules for learning are rules like the others. Tell me how a system devoid of a phenomenal representation of the external world could ever form a representation of the external world without knowing how to do that already. > >> That's why a real phenomenon happening in your head that innately connects to the real phenomemona in the external natural world >> and constructs an experienced representation of it, devoid of >> all knowledge 'about it',is necessary before you can know >> anything "about" it _at all_. > > Unsupported assertion. OK...want proof? Let's do a test. You are a scientist. You are about to do science on a coffee cup in front of you. Close your eyes. Now explain how you could possibly be as scientifically broad/adept in your description of coffee cups. (Meanwhile I have filled the coffee cup with acid, something of which you are completely unaware). The whole phenomenal scene connecting you with the external world is GONE. What more support do you want? What more is possible before a simple statement such as the one I make above becomes reasonable? Or, put it another way...exactly what is it that you are asserting acts in its place? Maybe you could tell me what that is I might understand. > >> There is a natural tendency to anthropomorphise our experiences >> into the artifact. Imagine yourself in a black silent room with >> a bunch of numbers streaming by and a bunch of dials you can >> use to send numbers back out. Now tell me how you can ever deduce >> the real external world from all those numbers. You can't. >> You can say 'when I poke this dial that number over there does >> that'. That is your whole universe. You have to stop thinking >> like a human and really imagine 'what it is like' to be a zombie. > > To imagine is to create an internal model - so imagining what it > is like to be a zombie seems to be a contradiction in terms. > > Brent Meeker Erm.... I am trying to convey what it is like to be a human contrasted with a zombie. YES...I am using human imagination to do that. You can't use that back against me... please try to do the imagining I suggest instead of criticising the attempt. I KNOW humans have imagination and zombies don't...sheesh! cut me some slack here! OK....If you like then....consider this bit >> Imagine yourself in a black silent room with >> a bunch of numbers streaming by and a bunch >> of dials you can use to send numbers back out. Delete all that as well. NOTHING. No awaness of even the numbers. For that is what the zombie has...even worse. No awareness even of its own sensing. nothing. Now put yourself in the zombie's shoes for a while. Colin --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to email@example.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---