Bruno: 'Dont hesitate to ask why, I am sure few people have understand 
the whole point. Some are close to it, perhaps by having figure this out 
by themselves.'

MP: Don't look at me boss ... I'm just glad I don't have to understand 
'it' to be able to exist within it!

SO, yes I will ask: What do you mean by 'physical'?

And next: what do you mean by 'exist'?

These are very basic questions, and in our context here, 'dumb' 
questions for sure, but without some clarification on how people are 
using these words, I don't think I can go any further.

Regards  

Mark Peaty  CDES

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/

"I think therefore I am right!" - Angelica  [Rugrat]



Bruno Marchal wrote:
> Hi Mark,
>
>
>
> Le 03-févr.-07, à 17:12, Mark Peaty a écrit :
>
>
>     John, I share your apparent perplexity. No matter which way up I
>     look at the things being discussed on this list, I always end up
>     back in the same place [and yes it is always 'here' :-] which is
>     that clearly prior to anything else is the fact of existence. I
>     have to take this at too levels:
>     1/   firstly as sloganised by Mr R Descartes: 'I think therefore I
>     am', although because I am naturally timid I tend more often to
>     say something like: 'I think therefore I cannot escape the idea
>     that if I say I don't exist it doesn't seem to sound quite right',
>
>
>
> That is good for you. I would say that Descartes gives a correct but 
> useless proof of the existence of Descartes' "first person". It is 
> useless because He knew it before his argument.
>
>
>
>     2/   the macroscopic corollary of the subjective microcosm just
>     mentioned is that it I try to assert that nothing exists that just
>     seems to be plain wrong, and if I dwell on the situations I find
>     myself in - beset as I am with ceaseless domestic responsibilities
>     and work related bureaucratic constraints, the clearest simple
>     intuition about it all is that the universe exists whether I know
>     it or not.
>
>
>
> Nobody has ever said that nothing exist. I do insist that "even me" 
> has a strong belief in the existence of a universe, "even" in a 
> physical universe. But then I keep insisting that IF the comp hyp is 
> correct, then materialism is false, and that physical universe is 
> neither material nor primitively physical. I am just saying to the 
> computationalist that they have to explain the physical laws, without 
> assuming any physics at the start.
> It is a "technical point". If we are digital machine then we must 
> explain particles and waves from the relation between numbers, knots, 
> and other mathematical object.
> Dont hesitate to ask why, I am sure few people have understand the 
> whole point. Some are close to it, perhaps by having figure this out 
> by themselves.
>
>
>
>     In short, being anything at all seems to entail being somewhere
>     now, and even though numbers and mathematical operations seem to
>     be wonderfully effective at representing many aspects of things
>     going on in the world, there seems to be no way of knowing if the
>     universe should be described as ultimately numeric in nature.
>
>
>
> You are right. Actually if comp is correct, what you are saying here 
> can be justified.
>
>
>
>     I must say too, that I am finding this and other
>     consciousness/deep and meaningful discussion groups somewhat akin
>     to the astronomer Hubble's view of the universe; the threads and
>     discourses seem to be expanding away from me at great speed, so
>     that every time I try to follow and respond to something,
>     everything seems to have proliferated AND gone just that little
>     bit further out of reach!
>
>
>
> Keep asking. Have you understood the first seven steps of the UD 
> Argument ? Look at my SANE paper. I think this makes available the 
> necessity of the reversal physics/math without technics.
> Most in this list were already open to the idea that a "theory of 
> everything" has the shape of a probability calculus on "observer 
> moment". Then some of us believe it is a relative measure, and some of 
> us accept the comp hyp which adds many constraints, which is useful 
> for making things more precise, actually even falsifiable in Popper 
> sense.
>
> I must go. I am busy this week, but this just means I will be more 
> slow than usual. Keep asking if you are interested. Don't let you 
> abuse by possible jargon ...
>
> Just don't let things go out of reach ... (but keep in mind that 
> consciousness/reality questions are deep and complex, so it is normal 
> to be stuck on some post, etc.).
>
>
> Best,
>
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>      
>     Regards
>     Mark Peaty  CDES
>     [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>     http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ 
>
>     John Mikes wrote: Bruno:
>
>
>         has anybody ever seen "numbers"? (except for Aunt Milly who
>         dreamed up the 5 numbers she saw in her dream - for the lottery).
>
>         "Where is the universe" - good question, but:
>         Has anybody ever seen "Other" universes?
>
>         Have we learned or developed (advanced) NOTHING since Pl & Ar?
>
>         It is amazing what learned savant scientists posted over the
>         past days.
>         Where are they indeed?
>
>         John
>
>
>
>         On 2/1/07, *Bruno Marchal* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>             Le 29-janv.-07, à 21:33, 1Z a écrit :
>
>             >
>             >
>             >
>             > On 24 Jan, 11:42, Bruno Marchal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>             >> Le 23-janv.-07, à 15:59, 1Z a écrit :
>             >>
>             >>
>             >>
>             >>> Bruno Marchal wrote:
>             >>
>             >>>> Also, nobody has proved the existence of a primitive
>             physical
>             >>>> universe.
>             >>
>             >>> Or of a PlatoniaCall it Platonia, God, Universe, or
>             Glass-of-Beer,
>             >>> we don' t care. But
>             >> we have to bet on a "reality", if we want some progress.
>             >>
>             >> Now, here is what I do. For each lobian machine
>             >
>             > Where are these machines? Platonia?
>
>
>
>             Where is the universe?
>
>
>
>
>
>             > I prefer to assume what I can see.
>
>
>
>
>             Fair enough. I think we can sum up the main difference
>             between
>             Platonists and Aristotelians like that:
>
>             Aristotelians believe in what they see, measure, etc. But
>             platonists
>             believe that what they see is the shadow of the shadow of
>             the shadow
>             ... of what could *perhaps* ultimately exists.
>
>             The deeper among the simplest argument for platonism, is
>             the dream
>             argument. Indeed, dreaming can help us to take some
>             distance with the
>             idea that seeing justifies beliefs. Put in another way, I
>             believe in
>             what I understand, and I am agnostic (and thus open
>             minded) about
>             everything else.
>
>             Now to be sure, I am not convinced that someone has
>             ever  "seen"
>             *primary matter*.
>
>             Bruno
>
>
>
>
>
> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>
> >

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