Kim, Bruno,

> Not at all. You have already done the first and last leap of faith of 
> the reasoning when accepting the digital brain at the first step. I am 
> aware that you are not aware of that, because in the reply you seem to 
> believe that the MEC hypothesis can be taken for granted. But it can't. 

I think you are talking of two different machine conceptions.

I would like to quote Steve Harnad:

Harnad, S. Can a machine be conscious? How? Journal of Consciousness 
Studies, 2003, 10, 67-75

...if we do follow this much more sensible route to the definition of 
"machine," we will find that a machine turns out to be simply: any 
causal physical system, any "mechanism." And in that case, biological 
organisms are machines too, and the answer to our question "Can a 
machine be conscious" is a trivial "Yes, of course." We are conscious 

Hence machines can obviously be conscious. The rest is just about what
kinds of machines can and cannot be conscious, and how -- and that
becomes a standard empirical research program in "cognitive science"...


I think this is the machine concept Kim was using originally (and maybe 
still has in mind).
This conception can, I think, be indeed taken for granted by every 
scientifically minded person.

Bruno, on the other hand, is talking about the machine concept as it 
exists in logic: here machine/mechanism  - and also the 
COMP(utationalism) of cognitive science - does not mean any physical 
causal system, but effective mechanisms - an informal notion formalised 
(according to Church-Turing Thesis) with UTM/Lambda/Rec. Functions.

And COMP is the assumption that we are Turing-emulable (with an UTM for 
example), not the more trivial hypothesis that we are a physical causal 

And this (COMP), indeed, can't be taken for granted but must be assumed.

Happy Holidays,

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
For more options, visit this group at

Reply via email to