On 30 Mar 2009, at 17:03, Quentin Anciaux wrote:

> Hi,
>
> 2009/3/30 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
>
> Hi Kelly, and others,
>
> Well, thanks for your report. Did you smoke the extract? It usually
> last for 4 minutes. It is amazing it did last so long with you, I know
> only one case of an experience lasting 20 minutes. I am happy you  
> found
> your experience interesting. You can consult and discuss your
> experience, and those of others here:
> http://www.entheogen.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=135
>
> Now the real question is, does that experience helped in providing,  
> for
> example, an answer to my last remark to Quentin?
>
> I quote the question again. It is important concerning
> comp-immortality, and eventually how to derive physics from computer
> science.
> I do think such a question is difficult, and show the weakness in
> identifying the self with personal memories, and this justifies the
> necessity of the AUDA move, I think.
>
> Of course, if you enjoy dream-state-like, you can enjoy Salvia without
> troubling yourself with hard metaphysical questions. Yet I would be
> interesting if Quentin or Stathis, or anyone, could acknowledge a
> conceptual difficulty here.
>
> <<Hmmm...
> I ask you, and others, this question. What is the probability "now",
> that you will find yourself in Washington and Moscow the 24 december
> 2009, when you are annihilated in Brussels, now, (17 March 2009) and
> reconstituted in both Moscow and Washington the 18 March 2009, say)?
> The problem is that the reconstitution machine did dysfunction in
> Washington, so that, from the 18 March 2009 up to the 20 Augustus 2009
> you (the you in Washington) suffered a  "total amnesia".  And then,
> "you" recovered slowly and progressively from that through adequate
> medication up to a total recall, the 23 December (and none of yous did
> move from W or M).
>
> Well I think all of this depends on the fact that your memories  
> "come back". If it doesn't then I will not be in washington, cqfd.

What if half of your memory come back?


>
>
> What you're talking about salvia (loosing your personnal identity  
> during the experience) is only correct because you have memories of  
> it (salvia experience) on your current self which knows he is Bruno.  
> If you had no memories of it then it makes no sense to say you did  
> loose your "identity".

Yes, but retrospectively, I can assert that I remain conscious,  
despite the loss of identity. So, why should we not take such  
"computational ontinuations" into account, in the immortality  
question, and in the hunt of 1-white rabbits? This is certainly not  
clear for me.



>
>
> As for conscious dream... I don't think you *do* know you're  
> conscious while dreaming, but you do know it after the dreaming  
> experience.


John Mikes seems to think so too, but here I certainly disagree. Lucid  
dreamer, who are verifiably in the paradoxical state of dream (through  
EEG) , can communicate with the observer in the lab, through eyes  
moves or through extremity of fingers (which are not paralysed). They  
have made all the usual experience (singing, computing, walking,  
running in the dream) and they have discover it generate the same  
activity in the dream than in the waking life. The experience of  
Laberge and Dement have definitely convinced me that the hypothesis  
that we are unconscious during dream is badly founded.
Consciousness should not be confused with awakeness.

Bruno



http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/




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