On 06 Dec 2009, at 05:07, benjayk wrote: > > > Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> It is actually an art to find the dosage and the timing so that you >> understand better some, well, let us say statements you get there. >> One >> is just impossible to memorize, or you stay there, and a copy is send >> here. This is a copy effect experimented by a reasonable proportion >> of >> users. > This is confusing me. > When you say "a copy is send" it sounds like the copy is not "the real > thing". How can you distinguish copy and original? The copy probably > won't > say it is just a copy (as opposed to the original).
You are right. It is even a key point in most thought experiments we discussed here. But we do suppose there that the copy are perfect, (a notion which makes sense with the computationalist hyp.). > > And what do you mean by "stay there"? Forever? Why should you stay > there > (can you choose)? And where is there? Is it forgetfulness oder > remembrance? It is very difficult to describe any first person experience. We cannot even describe normal state of consciousness, so it is even harder to describe "altered state of consciousness". Roughly speaking, such salvia copy-experiences I am describing, which occur "clearly" about a hundred times (among about 600 hundred hits) could be described in the following way, but I know it is quite paradoxal. I have to separate the first half of the experience from the second half, because they are strictly disconnected. First half: I am "bruno marchal" and I decide to smoke some salvia. After the hit I find myself in paradise. I am rather happy and, only for that reason, I want to stay there, and I insist for staying there. Some entity tells me that I can indeed stay there, and that they will send back on "earth" some copy to finish my job (but also to keep salvia legal!). I say "OK", and I am witness of the beginning of the copy process ... Second half: ... I am. I am in paradise since infinity. I enjoy the being state, but "there" there is no past, and no future. I have no memory, but still a sort of personality. Suddenly I get memories and I think "oh no, not again", because at that moment I have the feeling that something happens, which has already happened a lot of times. The memories get more and more precise, and at some point I accept them, but does not recognize them as "personal memories", then I got the last memories which are "I want to stay in paradise", and I understand that I am "a copy" send to earth to finish "his" job. I find myself on earth, but during some hours, I have still the memory of having always lived "there", and almost got the feeling that the smoking of salvia made me going from paradise to earth. The first time I did that type of salvia experience, I kept during three days the strong feeling of being completely refresh or reborn, like if I was just on earth since some days. Everything looked as completely new. I did not feel any memory as being personal, and that has been indeed very useful useful for doing some annoying job, and taking annoying decisions, I have to make. That feeling faded away the fourth day after the experience. > > This "staying there" thought is chasing me on many of my psychedlic > experience. I find it very scary, often it really hinders me to > enjoy the > experience, because the thought "but I don't want to leave 'my > reality' > forever" comes and makes me unable to relax. I did experience such things as well, but only with weed, in my youth, or with mushrooms (recently). In that case you feel a distinctively different sort of consciousness, and you may panic with the idea of staying in that stage. But with salvia it is different. You can sometimes feel like if the "normal state of consciousness' is the altered state you want to avoid. Some people lives a similar experience except that, instead of feeling like being in paradise, they feel like being in hell. They live the "memory retrieval" and the coming back with a huge relief and they got the feeling they were dead, and got another chance ... Some even conclude they have to change their life in some way if they want to avoid ending there. > > I tried salvia several times, too. I got some weird effects, like > thinking > "I die" in every instant because I identified with "a > moment" (scary, but > somehow funny in retrospection). That happens sometimes, as you can see on erowid or on salvianet reports. > Or remembering something exhilarating, but > being unable to express it or store it in my memory completely (I > tend to > think it's just the realization that there are no "bad problems", A general message is that there are no problem as far as you are clean with your own conscience. Apparently the plant is allergic to people lying to themselves. It is one of the most bizarre aspect of the salvia experience, it has a moral dimension. The more peaceful you are with yourself, the more divine you feel the bliss. It is very weird. It is just impossible to escape the annoying responsibilities you have in your life. Despite showing you that your life is a tiny illusory aspect of vaster reality, you have no choice than to accomplish or honestly try to accomplish "your mission on earth". Salvia actually seems to confront you with your responsibilities. Life is a dream, but you have to take it very seriously. But not more. By many aspect it is the complete opposite of the effect of weed, which can be sued to escape some painful aspect of life. On the contrary, salvia put your nose on it. > contrary > to what I felt on a N2O trip, that life consists only of problems - > not > enjoyable playful ones but rather "endless forced labour"). But I > never felt > like being a copy or having a choice of staying in salvia land. Well that times, I was in a bad period, and I remember having insisted a lot for staying there. Some people forget the first half, and have the feeling that the "coming back" is the start of the trip. See for an example this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpk-4eTfS2Q Some can feel having been always there, and that the salvia smoking makes them coming back in "reality". see this video for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30mzNPT7aAU Please interpret nothing literally, and put as many grains of salt on any word in such a context. A salvia report has to be read like a dream report, then we can build theories explainingthe resemblance of experiences, but this is something different, and related to what we usually do in this list. Yet, as a sitter, I have seen many people getting a better understanding that the problem of the relation between consciousness and reality is not obvious. Normally UDA should convince you of this, at the least, but salvia, like some dream experiences, may be more efficacious in that respect. Bruno Marchal http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.