On 06 Dec 2009, at 05:07, benjayk wrote:

>
>
> Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>
>> It is actually an art to find the dosage and the timing so that you
>> understand better some, well, let us say statements you get there.  
>> One
>> is just impossible to memorize, or you stay there, and a copy is send
>> here. This is a copy effect experimented by a reasonable proportion  
>> of
>> users.
> This is confusing me.
> When you say "a copy is send" it sounds like the copy is not "the real
> thing". How can you distinguish copy and original? The copy probably  
> won't
> say it is just a copy (as opposed to the original).

You are right. It is even a key point in most thought experiments we  
discussed here.
But we do suppose there that the copy are perfect, (a notion which  
makes sense with the computationalist hyp.).



>
> And what do you mean by "stay there"? Forever? Why should you stay  
> there
> (can you choose)? And where is there? Is it forgetfulness oder  
> remembrance?

It is very difficult to describe any first person experience. We  
cannot even describe normal state of consciousness, so it is even  
harder to describe "altered state of consciousness".

Roughly speaking, such salvia copy-experiences I am describing, which  
occur "clearly" about a hundred times (among about 600 hundred hits)  
could be described in the following way, but I know it is quite  
paradoxal. I have to separate the first half of the experience from  
the second half, because they are strictly disconnected.

First half:
I am "bruno marchal" and I decide to smoke some salvia. After the hit  
I find myself in paradise. I am rather happy and, only for that  
reason, I want to stay there, and I insist for staying there. Some  
entity tells me that I can indeed stay there, and that they will send  
back on "earth" some copy to finish my job (but also to keep salvia  
legal!). I say "OK", and I am witness of the beginning of the copy  
process ...

Second half:
... I am. I am in paradise since infinity. I enjoy the being state,  
but "there" there is no past, and no future. I have no memory, but  
still a sort of personality. Suddenly I get memories and I think "oh  
no, not again", because at that moment I have the feeling that  
something happens, which has already happened a lot of times. The  
memories get more and more precise, and at some point I accept them,  
but does not recognize them as "personal memories", then I got the  
last memories which are "I want to stay in paradise", and I understand  
that I am "a copy" send to earth to finish "his" job. I find myself on  
earth, but during some hours, I have still the memory of having always  
lived "there", and almost got the feeling that the smoking of salvia  
made me going from paradise to earth.

The first time I did that type of salvia experience, I kept during  
three days the strong feeling of being completely refresh or reborn,  
like if I was just on earth since some days. Everything looked as  
completely new. I did not feel any memory as being personal, and that  
has been indeed very useful useful for doing some annoying job, and  
taking annoying decisions, I have to make. That feeling faded away the  
fourth day after the experience.

>
> This "staying there" thought is chasing me on many of my psychedlic
> experience. I find it very scary, often it really hinders me to  
> enjoy the
> experience, because the thought "but I don't want to leave 'my  
> reality'
> forever" comes and makes me unable to relax.

I did experience such things as well, but only with weed, in my youth,  
or with mushrooms (recently).
In that case you feel a distinctively different sort of consciousness,  
and you may panic with the idea of staying in that stage. But with  
salvia it is different. You can sometimes feel like if the "normal  
state of consciousness' is the altered state you want to avoid.

Some people lives a similar experience except that, instead of feeling  
like being in paradise, they feel like being in hell. They live the  
"memory retrieval" and the coming back with a huge relief and they got  
the feeling they were dead, and got another chance ... Some even  
conclude they have to change their life in some way if they want to  
avoid ending there.



>
> I tried salvia several times, too. I got some weird effects, like  
> thinking
> "I die" in every instant because I identified with "a  
> moment" (scary, but
> somehow funny in retrospection).

That happens sometimes, as you can see on erowid or on salvianet  
reports.


> Or remembering something exhilarating, but
> being unable to express it or store it in my memory completely (I  
> tend to
> think it's just the realization that there are no "bad problems",

A general message is that there are no problem as far as you are clean  
with your own conscience. Apparently the plant is allergic to people  
lying to themselves. It is one of the most bizarre aspect of the  
salvia experience, it has a moral dimension. The more peaceful you are  
with yourself, the more divine you feel the bliss. It is very weird.  
It is just impossible to escape the annoying responsibilities you have  
in your life. Despite showing you that your life is a tiny illusory  
aspect of vaster reality, you have no choice than to accomplish or  
honestly try to accomplish "your mission on earth". Salvia actually  
seems to confront you with your responsibilities. Life is a dream, but  
you have to take it very seriously.  But not more.  By many aspect it  
is the complete opposite of the effect of weed, which can be sued to  
escape some painful aspect of life. On the contrary, salvia put your  
nose on it.



> contrary
> to what I felt on a N2O trip, that life consists only of problems -  
> not
> enjoyable playful ones but rather "endless forced labour"). But I  
> never felt
> like being a copy or having a choice of staying in salvia land.


Well that times, I was in a bad period, and I remember having insisted  
a lot for staying there.
Some people forget the first half, and have the feeling that the  
"coming back" is the start of the trip. See for an example this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpk-4eTfS2Q
Some can feel having been always there, and that the salvia smoking  
makes them coming back in "reality". see this video for example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30mzNPT7aAU


Please interpret nothing literally, and put as many grains of salt on  
any word in such a context. A salvia report has to be read like a  
dream report, then we can build theories explainingthe  resemblance of  
experiences, but this is something different, and related to what we  
usually do in this list.
Yet, as a sitter, I have seen many people getting a better  
understanding that the problem of the relation between consciousness  
and reality is not obvious. Normally UDA should convince you of this,  
at the least, but salvia, like some dream experiences,  may be more  
efficacious in that respect.

Bruno Marchal
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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