On 06 Dec 2009, at 22:40, benjayk wrote:

> Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>> And what do you mean by "stay there"? Forever? Why should you stay
>>> there
>>> (can you choose)? And where is there? Is it forgetfulness oder
>>> remembrance?
>> It is very difficult to describe any first person experience. We
>> cannot even describe normal state of consciousness, so it is even
>> harder to describe "altered state of consciousness".
> That's certainly true. Words can never convery an experience, they  
> can only
> link the experience and known experiences. But sometimes even this is
> difficult. The difference between looking at a plain wall with my  
> normal
> state of consciousness and on shrooms is somehow pretty small, yet  
> very big.
> It looks the same, only more clear, crisp, real and incomparably more
> beatiful... But many people simply won't get how a wall could look  
> "more
> real", especially when you "cloud your mind with drugs" - they will  
> say I
> "just imagined" it or I was "too wasted", which is totally  
> ridiculous to me.

That is why I think that we have just to be polite when people makes  
first person account, unless they refer to it to coerce against your  
interest (like with Churches, temples, sacred texts and other  
authoritative arguments like that).

> Bruno Marchal wrote:
>> Second half:
>> ... I am. I am in paradise since infinity. I enjoy the being state,
>> but "there" there is no past, and no future.
> But in retrospection, isn't this wrong? Because you are in the  
> future now,
> aren't you?

I have no clue if that is wrong or true, nor even if words like true  
and wrong applies to that. I was reporting a (dreamy) experience. I  
guess I felt it true at the moment I lived it, like a dream or any  
first person experience.
I am already skeptical about experience in real life, and as far as I  
can belief in comp, I definitely do not believe in what I see. I do  
believe that I see things, but I do not necessarily believe that what   
I see is "real", or "fundamentally real".

> Or maybe you never really leave this place? So you are still  
> there... After
> all, you are always in the present, now matter what happens. And in  
> some way
> you are in paradise, since even if you experience something bad, at  
> least
> "it admits" that it is bad and wants to go, so it is meaningless  
> compared to
> infinite possibilities of constant or growing well-being.

I use my conscious experience to suggest theories (conjecture).  
After,  I try not to mix them, unless using precisely this or that  

> Maybe if you can take this knowledge with you (even though it seems
> impossible; maybe it is possible partially?),

Given that the salvia experience is not pleasant (and anti-addictive)  
would I succeed to come back with a clear memory of the experience, I  
think I would have done done it only once. Actually this happens  
sometimes. Some rare people seems to do a "complete" (good) salvia  
experience, and seems never feel compel to "go there" again. It is not  
my case, even if now, just smelling the herb can result in a sort of  
total recall.

> nirvana (The word seems to fit
> what you experienced) and samsara begin to appear as what they  
> really are,
> the same (according to Mahāyāna Buddhism). Is this what being (or  
> becoming?)
> enlightened is about?
> Somehow I can't believe reality could be so dual: That there is this  
> place,
> and our totally different place, that are disconnected.

The point, I think, is that they are not disconnected at all. We just  
forget the connection, I think. What is the Darwinian advantage of  
forgetting that connection? I don't know if there is any. It may be  
that the human ego is an error, like betting on forces and massive  
bodies, instead of temperature regulation, was the dinosaur "errors".  
But I am speculating here.

  "This place" is just a tiny perspectival facet of the larger  
unnameable truth. With comp we can bet (but nothing more) that the  
unnameable truth could be the arithmetical truth. It is simpler, and  
100% undecidable that there is anything more (assuming comp true,  
given that comp is refutable, by its physics).

> Bruno Marchal wrote:
>> I have no memory, but
>> still a sort of personality. Suddenly I get memories and I think "oh
>> no, not again", because at that moment I have the feeling that
>> something happens, which has already happened a lot of times.
> It's funny, I get that feeling sometimes on shrooms, though not at
> returning, but at the beginning of going to this "place of oneness".  
> Like I
> remember that I begin to arrive "at home", at the place I "really"  
> belong.

I like that :)

> At first I feel really comforted, but then fear (and/or aversion)  
> starts to
> set in.

It is the shrooms' sense of humor. Salvia can also play trick like  
that. But with shrooms it can last for six hours!

> I actually feel like having been there somehow, but not in this
> life, or not completely or not yet? It is so familiar, yet I don't  
> think I
> "really" was there.

You know the word "really" is a very tricky one. I just come back from  
my kitchen, but how could I know I have been really there? All I know  
is that I am conscious here and now, the rest, be it numbers, physics,  
gods, memories, predictions, etc. are useful or less useful, elegant  
or less elegant, theories or conjectures.

Bruno Marchal



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