On 3/14/2012 11:51 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
On 13.03.2012 20:59 meekerdb said the following:
On 3/13/2012 12:44 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
On 13.03.2012 20:32 meekerdb said the following:
On 3/13/2012 12:26 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
In my collection I have this quote for example
25.01.2012 21:25 Brent: “The thermodynamic entropy is a measure of the
information required to locate the possible states of the plates in
the phase space of atomic configurations constituting them. Note that
the thermodynamic entropy you quote is really the *change* in entropy
per degree at the given temperature. It’s a measure of how much more
phase space becomes available to the atomic states when the internal
energy is increased. More available phase space means more uncertainty
of the exact actual state and hence more information entropy. This
information is enormous compared to the “01″ stamped on the plate, the
shape of the plate or any other aspects that we would normally use to
convey information. It would only be in case we cooled the plate to
near absolute zero and then tried to encode information in its
microscopic vibrational states that the thermodynamic and the encoded
information entropy would become similar. ”
Yes, that clearly states that entropy is equal to the information that
would be required to eliminate the uncertainty as to the exact state in
phase space. It's *the missing* information when you only specify the
thermodynamic variables. So what is strange about that? Dollars are a
measure of debt, but that doesn't mean you have a lot of dollars when
you have a lot of debt.
What is the difference with what I have said previously? Entropy and
information are related, that is, if I know the entropy, I can infer
information and vice versa, so in essence the entropy is information.
But the thermodynamic information, what you get from the JANAF tables,
is the missing information when you just specify the thermodynamic
variables. If you specify more variables there will be less missing and
the entropy will be lower. If you specified the exact state of every
atom the entropy of the system would be zero. So the two are not the
same, they are complementary; like debt and wealth: both are measured in
money but more of one means less of the other.
Then the thermodynamic entropy is subjective. Try to convince in this engineers who
develop engines, or chemists who compute equilibria, and see what happens.
It is relative not just to the information but the use of that information. Even if you
told an engineer designing a steam turbine the position and momentum of each molecule of
steam he would ignore it because he has no practical way of using it to take advantage of
the lower entropy that is in principle available. He has no way to flex and deform the
turbine blades billions of times per second in order to get more power from the steam.
The experiment I linked to is extremely simple so that it is possible to use the information.
I will read the paper that you have found (it may take some time though until I will
find time for this). Let me be back to your definition then.
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