Qualia aspect? Please consider my 'rigid' agnostic stance with all those unknowable aspects playing into - what you so succinctly call: 'qualia' - I struggled for a long time to boil down my MOST GENERALIZED definition for something that would cover what many of us (?) call consciousness. I don't want to put a partial group of qualia on the banner. Besides: I fell into my own concept of 'networks of Networks (Karl Jaspers Forum TA62MIK) according to which there is no limitation how far connections may go. So whatever I would name 'qualia' is by Occam's razor. Not as a term of the infinite complexity I have in mind. JM
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: > > On 12 May 2012, at 22:51, John Mikes wrote: > > Pure non-consciousness? > that would approach the 'pure(?) nothingness' - even in my generalized > definition of Ccness: > "response to relations" leaving open he definition of a response and of > relations. Otherwise it is perfect. > > > But 'response to relations' miss the qualia aspect of consciousness. > > > > RESPONSE came in as a concoction from "acknowledgement of and response > to" since you cannot respond without acknowledging to WHAT you reflect. > RELATION came in from the visualized (infinite) complexity of which we > also are part and lots of so far unknown eements are included that MAY > influence our 'world' (the model). All 'information' (hard to specify!) > ends up in relations as it 'refers' to complexity-aspects. > > > That is a bit unclear for me. > > > Sorry for using so many unfamiliar words. > > > That might explain why. > > Bruno M > > > John M > > On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 8:09 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> On 10 May 2012, at 21:09, John Mikes wrote: >> >> Bruno and Ricardo: >> ...unless you remove the "boundries" as well - I think. >> That would end up for "nothing" with a POINT, which is still a point and >> not nothing. (If you eliminate the point???) >> John M >> >> >> >> I think we agree John. Pure nothingness makes no sense. Pure >> non-consciousness makes no sense either. >> And besides, with the comp assumption, we have to assume the numbers and >> addition and multiplication, if not, words like "digital" have no meaning. >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 2:55 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> >>> On 09 May 2012, at 21:39, R AM wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 8:23 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> On 09 May 2012, at 17:09, R AM wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> "nothing" could also be obtained by removing the curly brackets from >>>> the empty set {}. >>>> >>>> >>>> Noooo... Some bit of blank remains. If it was written on hemp, you >>>> could smoke it. That's not nothing! >>>> >>>> Don't confuse the notion and the symbols used to point to the notion. >>>> Which you did, inadvertently I guess. >>>> >>> >>> I was using the analogy between items contained in sets and things >>> contained in bags. The curly brackets would represent the bags. Removing >>> things from a bag leaves it empty. Removing the bag leaves ... nothing. >>> >>> >>> Nothing in the universe of sets. But this makes not much sense. And you >>> have still an empty universe. Then you will tell me to remove all >>> universes, but you will still get an empty multiverse. Oh, you can get rid >>> of all multiverses, but you will still have an empty multi-multiverse. Oh, >>> you can reiterate this in the transfinite, ... but you need some rich >>> theory at the metalevel, then. Absolute nothingness does not make sense in >>> my opinion. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sure, like 0 is some sort of nothing in Number theory, and like >>>> quantum vacuum is some sort of nothing in QM. Nothing is a theory dependent >>>> notion. (Not so for the notion of computable functions). >>>> >>> >>> Yes, these concrete nothings are well behaved, unlike the absolute >>> nothing, which we don't know what rules it obey (in case it is a meaningful >>> concept, which it might not be). >>> >>> >>> OK. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Extensionally, the UD is a function from nothing (no inputs) to >>>> nothing (no outputs), but then what a worker! >>>> >>>> Extensionally it belongs to { } ^ { }. It is a function from { } to { >>>> }. >>>> >>> >>> But I guess that is because the UD generates internally all possible >>> inputs for all possible programs, isn't it. >>> >>> >>> Right. >>> >>> Bruno >>> >>> >>> >>> Ricardo. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> [email protected]. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>> >>> >>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> [email protected]. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected]. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected]. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >> > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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