On 01 Jun 2012, at 19:09, meekerdb wrote:

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On 6/1/2012 7:50 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:On 31 May 2012, at 21:38, Jason Resch wrote:On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 2:09 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>wrote:On 31 May 2012, at 18:29, Jason Resch wrote:On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 3:27 AM, Bruno Marchal<marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:On 29 May 2012, at 22:26, Jason Resch wrote:On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 12:55 PM, Bruno Marchal<marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:To see this the following thought experience can help. Some guywon a price consisting in visiting Mars by teleportation. Buthis state law forbid annihilation of human. So he made ateleportation to Mars without annihilation. The version of Marsis very happy, and the version of earth complained, and so tryagain and again, and again ... You are the observer, and fromyour point of view, you can of course only see the guy who gotthe feeling to be infinitely unlucky, as if P = 1/2, staying onearth for n experience has probability 1/2^n (that the HarryPotter experience). Assuming the infinite iteration, the guy asa probability near one to go quickly on Mars.Bruno,Thanks for your very detailed reply in the other thread, Iintend to get back to it later, but I had a strange thoughtwhile reading about the above experiment that I wanted to clearup.You mentioned that the probability of remaining on Earth is(1/2)^n, where n is the number of teleportations.Not really. I pretend that this is the relative probabilityinferred by the person in front of you. But he is wrong ofcourse. Each time the probability is 1/2, but his experience is"harry-Potter-like".I can see clearly that the probability of remaining on earthafter the first teleportation is 50%, but as the teleportationscontinue, does it remain 50%?Yes.Let's say that N = 5, therefore there are 5 copies on Mars, and1 copy on earth. Wouldn't the probability of remaining on Earthbe equal to 1/6th?You cannot use absolute sampling. I don't think it makes any sense.While I can see it this way, I can also shift my perspective sothat I see the probability as 1/32 (since each time the teleportbutton is pressed, I split in two). It is easier for me to seehow this works in quantum mechanics under the followingexperiment:I choose 5 different electrons and measure the spin on the y-axis, the probability that I measure all 5 to be in the up stateis 1 in 32 (as I have caused 5 splittings),OK.but what if the experiment is: measure the spin states of up to5 electrons, but stop once you find one in the up state.That is a different protocol. The one above is the onecorresponding to the earth/mars experience.In this case it seems there are 6 copies of me, with thefollowing records:1. D 2. DU 3. DDU 4. DDDU 5. DDDDU 6. DDDDDHowever, not all of these copies should have the same measure.The way I see it is they have the following probabilities:1. D (1/2) 2. DU (1/4) 3. DDU (1/8) 4. DDDU (1/16) 5. DDDDU (1/32) 6. DDDDD (1/32)I suppose what is bothering me is that in the Mars transporterexperiment, it seems the end result (having 1 copy on earth, and5 copies on mars) is no different from the case where thetransporter creates all 5 copies on Mars at once.This is ambiguous.What I mean is me stepping into the teleporter 5 times, with thenet result being 1 copy on Earth and 5 copies on Mars, seems justlike stepping into the teleporter once, and the teleporter thencreating 5 copies (with delay) on Mars.Like the diagram on step 4 of UDA: http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/publications/SANE2004MARCHAL_fichiers/image012.gifExcept there is no annihilation on Earth, and there are 4 copiescreated with delay on Mars (instead of one with delay).When stepping into the teleporter once, and having 5 copiescreated on Mars (with various delays between each one beingproduced) is the probability of remaining on Earth 1/6th?Yes.That would be a good idea to enhance the probability to be theone, or a one, finding himself of mars. But again, the guy onearth will be in front of the "looser", even if you multiply by20. billions your delayed copies on mars.Is the difference with the iterated example receiving theknowledge that the other copy made it to Mars before steppinginto the Teleporter again?I don't understand the sentence. It looks like what is thedifference between 24.I apologize for not being clear. There are two differentexperiments I am contrasting:1. A person steps into a teleporter, and 5 copies (with varyingdelays) are reproduced on Mars.2. A person steps into a teleporter, and a duplicate is created onMars. To increase the chance of subjectively finding himself onMars, he does it again (when he fails) and the copy on Earth doesso 5 times before giving up.For experiment 1, you and I seem to agree that subjectively, thatperson person has a 1 in 6 chance of experiencing a continuedpresence on earth, and a 5/6 chance of finding himself on mars.For experiment 2, I believe you suggested there is a 1 in 32(subjective chance) of going through this exercise and not havingthe subjective experience of ending up on Mars. Have I understoodthis correctly thus far?If so, what accounts for these different subjectiveprobabilities? How can it be that there is a 31/32 chance offinding oneself on mars if there are just 5 copies there?I hope I have been clear enough. Thanks again.OK. Thanks, this is clearer.In the experience 1, the guy steps in the teleporter only once, andhis multiplied by 6, including the original. So, it has aprobability 1/6 to stay on earth, and 5/6 to find itself on Mars(accepting the P=1/2, etc.).In the experience 2, the guy repeats 5 times a duplicationexperience, each of which has a probability of 1/2.That is what account for the difference. The protocol of the twoexperiments are very different in term of the relativeprobabilities. OK?Experience 1 is equivalent with a throwing of a dice. Experience 2is equivalent with 6 throwing of a coin.You might be disturbed by the fact that in experience 2, the"original" remains the same person, so we don't count him as a newperson, each time he steps in the box. This, in my opinion,illustrates again that we have to use RSSA instead of ASSA.Suppose the original goes to Mars and the copy stays behind. Thenthe probability the original went to Mars is 1.

`The question is asked before the guy enter in the box. This is a "step`

`5" case. The probability to feel to stay the original is 1/2.`

Bruno

But which is the original? BrentAll right? Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ --You received this message because you are subscribed to the GoogleGroups "Everything List" group.To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com.To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.--You received this message because you are subscribed to the GoogleGroups "Everything List" group.To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.

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