Bruno,
examples are not identifiction. I was referring to (your?) lack of detailed
description what the universal machine consists of and how it functions
(maybe: beyond what we know - ha ha). A comprehensive ID. Your "lot of
examples" rather denies that you have one. And:
'if it is enough FOR YOU to consider them," it may not be enough for me. I
don't really know HOW conscious I am.

I like your  counter-point in competence and intelligence.
I identified the "wisdom" (maybe it should read: the intelligence) of the
oldies as not 'disturbed' by too many factual(?) known circumstances -
maybe it is competence.
To include our inventory accumulated over the millennia as impediment
('blinded by').

John M

On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 11:01 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

>
> On 08 Oct 2012, at 22:07, John Mikes wrote:
>
> Dear Richard, "I think" the lengthy text is Ben's article in response to
>> D. Deutsch.
>> Sometimes I was erring in the belief that it is YOUR text, but no. Thanks
>> for copying.
>> It is too long and too little organized for me to keep up with
>> ramifications prima vista.
>> What I extracted from it are some remarks I will try to communicate to
>> Ben (a longtime e-mail friend) as well.
>>
>> I have my (agnostically derived) version of intelligence: the capability
>> of reading 'inter'
>> lines (words/meanings). Apart from such human distinction: to realize the
>> 'essence' of relations beyond vocabulary, or 'physical science' definitions.
>> Such content is not provided in our practical computing machines
>> (although Bruno trans-leaps such barriers with his (Löb's) universal
>> machine unidentified).
>>
>
>
> Unidentified?    I give a lot of  examples: PA, ZF, John Mikes, me, and
> the octopus.
>
> In some sense they succeed enough the mirror test. That's enough for me to
> consider them, well, not just conscious, but as conscious as me, and you.
> The difference are only on domain competence, and intelligence (in which
> case it might be that octopus are more intelligent than us, as we are
> blinded by our competences).
>
> It is possible that when competence grows intelligence decrease, but I am
> not sure.
>
> Bruno
>
>
>  Whatever our (physical) machines can do is within the physical limits of
>> information - the content of the actual "MODEL" of the world we live with
>> by yesterday's knowledge, no advanced technology can transcend such
>> limitations: there is no input to do so. This may be the limits for AI, and
>> AGI as well. Better manipulation etc. do not go BEYOND.
>>
>> Human mind-capabilities, however, (at least in my 'agnostic' worldview)
>> are under the influences (unspecified) from the infinite complexity BEYOND
>> our MODEL, without our knowledge and specification's power. Accordingly we
>> MAY get input from more than the factual content of the MODEL. On such
>> (unspecified) influences may be our creativity based (anticipation of
>> Robert Rosen?) what cannot be duplicated by cutest algorithms in the best
>> computing machines.
>> Our 'factual' knowable in the MODEL are adjusted to our mind's capability
>> - not so even the input from the unknowable 'infinite complexity's'
>> relations.
>>
>> Intelligence would go beyond our quotidian limitations, not feasible for
>> machines that work within such borders.
>>
>> I may dig out relevant information from Ben's text in subsequent
>> readings, provided that I get to it back.
>>
>>
>> Thanks again, it was a very interesting scroll-down
>>
>> John Mikes
>>
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