Bruno, examples are not identifiction. I was referring to (your?) lack of detailed description what the universal machine consists of and how it functions (maybe: beyond what we know - ha ha). A comprehensive ID. Your "lot of examples" rather denies that you have one. And: 'if it is enough FOR YOU to consider them," it may not be enough for me. I don't really know HOW conscious I am.
I like your counter-point in competence and intelligence. I identified the "wisdom" (maybe it should read: the intelligence) of the oldies as not 'disturbed' by too many factual(?) known circumstances - maybe it is competence. To include our inventory accumulated over the millennia as impediment ('blinded by'). John M On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 11:01 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: > > On 08 Oct 2012, at 22:07, John Mikes wrote: > > Dear Richard, "I think" the lengthy text is Ben's article in response to >> D. Deutsch. >> Sometimes I was erring in the belief that it is YOUR text, but no. Thanks >> for copying. >> It is too long and too little organized for me to keep up with >> ramifications prima vista. >> What I extracted from it are some remarks I will try to communicate to >> Ben (a longtime e-mail friend) as well. >> >> I have my (agnostically derived) version of intelligence: the capability >> of reading 'inter' >> lines (words/meanings). Apart from such human distinction: to realize the >> 'essence' of relations beyond vocabulary, or 'physical science' definitions. >> Such content is not provided in our practical computing machines >> (although Bruno trans-leaps such barriers with his (Löb's) universal >> machine unidentified). >> > > > Unidentified? I give a lot of examples: PA, ZF, John Mikes, me, and > the octopus. > > In some sense they succeed enough the mirror test. That's enough for me to > consider them, well, not just conscious, but as conscious as me, and you. > The difference are only on domain competence, and intelligence (in which > case it might be that octopus are more intelligent than us, as we are > blinded by our competences). > > It is possible that when competence grows intelligence decrease, but I am > not sure. > > Bruno > > > Whatever our (physical) machines can do is within the physical limits of >> information - the content of the actual "MODEL" of the world we live with >> by yesterday's knowledge, no advanced technology can transcend such >> limitations: there is no input to do so. This may be the limits for AI, and >> AGI as well. Better manipulation etc. do not go BEYOND. >> >> Human mind-capabilities, however, (at least in my 'agnostic' worldview) >> are under the influences (unspecified) from the infinite complexity BEYOND >> our MODEL, without our knowledge and specification's power. Accordingly we >> MAY get input from more than the factual content of the MODEL. On such >> (unspecified) influences may be our creativity based (anticipation of >> Robert Rosen?) what cannot be duplicated by cutest algorithms in the best >> computing machines. >> Our 'factual' knowable in the MODEL are adjusted to our mind's capability >> - not so even the input from the unknowable 'infinite complexity's' >> relations. >> >> Intelligence would go beyond our quotidian limitations, not feasible for >> machines that work within such borders. >> >> I may dig out relevant information from Ben's text in subsequent >> readings, provided that I get to it back. >> >> >> Thanks again, it was a very interesting scroll-down >> >> John Mikes >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To post to this group, send email to >> everything-list@googlegroups.**com<email@example.com> >> . >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> everything-list+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com<everything-list%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> >> . >> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** >> group/everything-list?hl=en<http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en> >> . >> > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~**marchal/ <http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/> > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to > everything-list@googlegroups.**com<firstname.lastname@example.org> > . > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscribe@ > **googlegroups.com <everything-list%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** > group/everything-list?hl=en<http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en> > . > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to email@example.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.