Hi Roger,

I'm interested in the thought process that led you to reject
autopoeisis. I was intrigued by your recent post about life that
defined it as the process of creation, rather than the object of it.

Personally I think autopoeisis is an important concept, one of the
best yet put forward towards the goal of defining life. I think there
is a lot of potential in the idea in terms of applying it beyond the
biological domain. As it only deals with relations among a network of
processes, it does not assume the physical.

At the very least is is indispensable as a framework for understanding autonomy.

Best,
Terren

On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 10:31 AM, Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net> wrote:
> Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy
>
> I  agree.
>
> I was wrong about autopoesis. It is
> a mind-boggling definition of life,
> maybe not even that.
>
>
> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
> 10/15/2012
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen
>
>
> ----- Receiving the following content -----
> From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy
> Receiver: everything-list
> Time: 2012-10-14, 09:26:19
> Subject: Re: autopoesis
>
>
> Hi Roger,
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 2:41 PM, Roger Clough  wrote:
>
>
> Autopoesis is a useful definition for life.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopoiesis
>
>
> Autopoiesis (from Greek a?to- (auto-), meaning "self", and p???s?? (poiesis), 
> meaning "creation, production") literally means "self-creation" and expresses 
> a fundamental dialectic among structure, mechanism and function. The term was 
> introduced in 1972 by Chilean biologists Humberto
> Maturana and Francisco Varela:
>
> An autopoietic machine is a machine organized (defined as a unity) as a 
> network of processes of production (transformation and destruction) of 
> components
> which:
>
> (i) through their interactions and transformations continuously regenerate 
> and realize the network of processes (relations) that produced them; and
>
> (ii) constitute it (the machine) as a concrete unity in space in which they 
> (the components) exist by specifying the topological domain of its 
> realization as such a network.[1]
>
> [...] the space defined by an autopoietic system is self-contained and cannot 
> be described by using dimensions that define another space.
> When we refer to our interactions with a concrete autopoietic system, 
> however, we project this system on the space of our manipulations and make a
> description of this projection.[2]
>
>
>
> This seems to me more a description for machines/hallucinations that lack 
> flexibility; such as how media, politics, and market are framed in public 
> discourse. Like Luhmann said "they tend to be operationally closed".
>
> The statement? above "continuously regenerate and realize the network of 
> processes (relations) that produced them" stands counter to "transformations" 
> which would indeed change "(ii) constitute it (the machine) as a concrete 
> unity in space in which they (the components) exist by specifying the 
> topological domain of its realization as such a network.[1]", specifically 
> the "concreteness" of the unity and the discreetness of its domain is 
> undermined by "transformation".
>
> The original Greek definition, does ring a bell for creative processes and 
> dreaming however, but in an "operationally less bounded" sense.
>
> m
> ?
>
> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
> 10/14/2012
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen
>
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