Hi Stephen P. King  

Nothing that is in spacetime can think.
Thinking or reasoning is a property of mind,
or intelligence, which is outside of spacetime.

Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 

----- Receiving the following content -----  
From: Stephen P. King  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2012-10-16, 18:45:39 
Subject: Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of 
overlycomplexcomputations ? 

On 10/16/2012 4:19 PM, meekerdb wrote: 

On 10/16/2012 12:41 PM, Stephen P. King wrote:  
On 10/16/2012 2:42 PM, meekerdb wrote: 

On 10/16/2012 7:44 AM, Stephen P. King wrote:  
Hi Alberto, 

    OK, I am officially confused by your statements. You previously wrote: 
"Magic emergence from magic enough complexity has been advocated for almost 
anything." and now you suggest that consciousness is contingent on a level of 
evolution, ala: "... in this stage of evolution a form of consciousness becomes 
a necessity".  
    How is this not an argument for emergence from complexity? What is 
evolution other than a mechanism in Nature to generate increasing stable 
complex structures in the physical universe? Either consciousness is an 
irreducible primitive or it is not? 
    I agree that complexity *is* involved when we consider issues such as 
"reportablity" of consciousness, but the property of "having a subjective 
experience of being in the world" itself can be strongly argued to flow at the 
most basic level that allows differences. 

If there are no inputs from the world to perceive, e.g. a person in a sensory 
deprivation tank, or the 'perceptions' are very simple interactions, e.g. an 
orbital electron scattering a photon what will be the content of this 
subjective experience? 


Hi Brent, 

    How so? Do we humans have "orbital electron scattering" of photons as 
actual experiential content?  

No, but Craig thinks electrons do. 

Hi Brent, 

    So do I, it is very primitive, but present. The reasoning is simple, there 
must be something that it is like to be an electron. My belief in this follows 
from my agreement with panprotopsychism and explained in David Chalmers book 
The Conscious Mind. I don't have time to defend the idea now, but you might 
read Chalmers book and decide for yourself. 

It seems to me that all talk of "orbital electron scattering a photon" that is 
an abstract narrative that we talk to each other about and use to make 
predictions of phenomena that is within our sphere of mutual non-contradiction. 

Sure, the 3p story is one we create to explain intersubjective agreement about 
1p experience.  But my point is that consciousness is not basic, otherwise it 
wouldn't need external stimuli to avoid infinite loops. 

    Who claims that it needs to avoid endless loops? In fact, endless looping 
is required! At our level, we need external stimuli just to stay coherent with 
each other. Consciousness is, on its own, solipsistic and thus lost in its 
"hall of mirrors". Interactions are a break in this symmetry of ME ME ME ME ME 


Our knowledge of physical laws, like all content of experience is 1p that could 
be defined as 3p iff possible. 



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