On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 12:41 PM, Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com> wrote:

> We are atoms, molecules, cells, tissues, and organisms. Whatever we do is
> what the laws of physics *actually are*. Your assumptions about the laws of
> physics are 20th century legacy ideas based on exterior manipulations of
> exterior instruments to measure other exterior phenomena.

Whatever we do is determined by a small set of rules, the rules being
as you say what matter actually does and not imposed by people or
divine whim. I really don't understand where you disagree with me,
since you keep making statements then pulling back if challenged. Do
you think the molecules in your brain follow the laws of physics, such
as they may be? If so, then the behaviour of each molecule is
determined or follows probabilistic laws, and hence the behaviour of
the collection of molecules also follows deterministic or
probabilistic laws. If consciousness, sense, will, or whatever else is
at play in addition to this then we would notice a deviation from
these laws. That is what it would MEAN for consciousness, sense, will
or whatever else to have a separate causal efficacy; absent this, the
physical laws, whatever they are, determine absolutely everything that
happens, everywhere, for all time. Which part of this do you not agree

> You can't see
> consciousness that way. From far enough a way, our cities look like nothing
> more than glowing colonies of mold. It's not programming that makes us one
> way or another, it is perception which makes things seem one way or another.
> The only thing that makes computers different is that they don't exist
> without our putting them together. They don't know how to exist. This makes
> them no different than letters that we write on a page or cartoons we watch
> on a screen.

If the computer came about through an amazing accident would that make
any difference to its consciousness or intelligence? If a biological
human were put together from raw materials by advanced aliens would
that make any difference to his consciousness or intelligence?

Stathis Papaioannou

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