On 01 Nov 2012, at 19:13, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:

On 01.11.2012 18:30 Bruno Marchal said the following:

On 01 Nov 2012, at 11:09, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:


“Absolute Spirit is the fundamental reality. But in order to create
the world, the Absolute manifests itself, or goes out of itself in
a sense, the Absolute forgets itself and empties itself into
creation (although never really ceasing to be itself). Thus the
world is created as a “falling away” from Spirit, as a
“self-alienation” of Spirit, although the Fall is never anything
but a play of Spirit itself.”

Yes. This remind me of my quoting of Aurobindo, which suits so well
something in both comp, and, swim has to say, the salvia divinorum

<< What, you ask, was the beginning of it all?

And it is this ... Existence that multiplied itself For sheer delight
of being And plunged into numberless trillions of forms So that it
might Find Itself Innumerably (Aurobindo)

“Having “fallen” into the manifest and material world, Spirit
begins the process of returning to itself, and this process of the
return of Spirit to Spirit is simply development or evolution
itself. The original “descent” (or involution) is a forgetting, a
fall, a self-alienation of Spirit; and the reverse movement of
“ascent” (or evolution) is thus the self-remembering and
self-actualization of Spirit. And yet, the Idealists emphasized,
all of Spirit is fully present at each and every stage of evolution
as the process of evolution itself. ”

I can't agree more, Evgenii.

It is also very close to Plotinus' emanation/conversion, which has
influenced the Christians a lot, even if this has often taken the
shape of fairy tales (which obviously should never been taken

In Plotinus, and in comp we can say more: it is the process of
conversion of the Soul toward the Spirit, which literally create the
material reality. It is the indeterminateness of the border of the
universal mind, where God loss control, so to speak, which makes it
possible for the soul to start the conversion, and come back to the
source. That conception of matter is already in Aristotle, but
Plotinus gives the Platonist correction which makes it consistent,
and even necessary I would say, with the theology, including physics,
of the universal machines. Each individual universal machines is a
window for the arithmetical truth to discover (partially) itself, but
also losing itself, in itself. This entails  a double amnesia: God
has to forget his identity to explore itself, and the creatures have
to forget the window and the exploration  (the body and the
environment) to remember who they are. Likewise with salvia: you
forget who you are here to remind who you are there, and vice versa,
apparently from many reports, although you can also just disconnect,
instead of forgetting (which is handy when the phone rings).

Indeed, the same with comp once you accept the greek definition of
knowledge and dream---roughly speaking: true belief (knowledge) and
consistent belief (dream).



Then you may like

This you cannot know. I just said that computer science shows that Plotinus and Plato, and perhaps the German idealists (which I find difficult to interpret, greek is more easy than german) are closer to the consequence of comp, than aritstotle and naturalism. I am mute on the fact that I like that or not. Comp is elegant, like Everett-QM, but admittedly shocking and even frightening by many aspect (besides being "new").
But science tries to avoid wishful thinking.

Ken Wilber, The Marriage of Sense and Soul: Integrating Science and Religion

I will try to take a look. Nice titles, and the quotes were very nice (= close to comp's consequences).

as the quotes have been from this book. There is nothing about comp there but the book is not that bad.

I should say that the author understands the religion pretty general: as spirit and contemplation.

OK, that is already close to Plato, Plotinus and the mystics throughout the world.

It is an interesting overview of how science has started to dominate over art and moral and what could be done against it. The different would-be solutions from history are also considered. Wilber’s solution, if I have understood correctly, goes like a combination of German idealism (that you like) + Joga.

There are many paths. But in the type of consumerism based on lies of today, none can even begin. We have simpler problems to solve before, like stopping criminals to think for us.



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