Hi Bruno,

As I read it, the √úbermensch is the being that is aware of the limits of
Mensch ideology and values. Of course this can be hijacked to support
discrimination against groups, but only if you want to be dishonest. But he
emphasizes that abandoning the humanist conception of values is only a
destruction insofar as it is paired with " the sovereign power of
affirmation" and the ability, to reach a place, where we can say "yes" to
the world, without guilt or dishonesty in conscience. To Zarathustra,
negation has come to dominate human thought, it has become constitutive of
human self-image: with this human, the whole world sinks and sickens, the
whole of life is depreciated, everything known slides into its own
"nothingness". Zarathustra says "Yes and Amen in a tremendous and unbounded
way" (see Chapter six of "Thus spoke Zarathustra", if you're interested)
and so does the √úbermensch. This paints for me "joyful agnostic" with human
entity questioned as ontological primitive.

And again, Zarathustra makes fun of the followers that take him seriously.
But I don't want to sell Nietzsche here as he wouldn't want to be "sold";
just to point out that the revaluation of all values and your unease, as
they appear framed to me here, are not warranted by anything I've read.

Cowboy


On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 11:39 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

>
> On 06 Nov 2012, at 17:45, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote:
>
> Hi Roger,
>
> If you want to read him that trivially, go ahead. The constant, eternal
> revaluation of all values. This is just implied by asking "what's going
> on?".
>
> And yes, this is gently consistent with never ending platonic questioning
> + a popper style negation, even humor, on his own statements, that they are
> wrong, that they not be overly concretized. Nietzsche never "taught his own
> ideas", although he was active academically very early.
>
> If you'd open a single page, you'd see how conflicted he was about the
> transmission of fruits of introspection. But I wouldn't want to offend you
> with any of that, or that I think he anticipated the computer + its
> consequences more than once, as you already have made up your mind in a
> rather discriminatory fashion without reading the man/machine in his native
> language, so...
>
> I am not merely a platonist: also guitar cowboy and dance and jam in every
> realm I can and keep my platonism in check with my sense of groove and
> swing +  good steak, now and then. I have a taste for the Dionysian joys,
> for colors, and richness, variety as much as I love Platonia.
>
> But Platonia, in this abstract technical sense you imply, is pretty
> joyless and dull. Nietzsche is good antidote for that. On Kant he mused
> once: "What kind of a soul must build such an unassailable fortress of
> thought? What is it distracting itself from, building these labyrinths of
> descriptive power for a group of disciples it will never admit to itself,
> that it vainly wants to have? For why else build such fortresses?"
>
> For these reason I'd suggest for you to not read him, especially not in
> German. Right on with "garbage he taught", would be the first thing he'd
> admit and laugh.
>
>
>
> It does look we agree that Nietzsche was a poet with a deep talent. I read
> "Also Sprach Zarathustra", in german and in french, and I love it, but,
> later, rereading it, I got a feeling of uneasiness. I got it also with many
> people idolatring Nietzche, or taking granted what he said, I dunno.
> It might be, correct me if I am wrong, a sort of remanent atheism in the
> work, or perhaps it is, like with art, just a question of taste. May be I
> have unconsciously rely his "uber mensh" with what happened in WW II.
> I certainly do appreciare Richard Strauss "Also Sprach Zarathustra", but
> that's thanks to "2001 Space Odyssey", plausibly!
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> PGC
>
> On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 4:59 PM, Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy
>>
>>
>> So what ? I have no stomach for the revaluation
>> of all values and the other garbage Nietzsche
>> taught. If you are truly a platonist, you would
>> agree with me.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
>> 11/6/2012
>> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen
>>
>>
>> ----- Receiving the following content -----
>> From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy
>> Receiver: everything-list
>> Time: 2012-11-06, 10:35:15
>> Subject: Re: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ?
>>
>>
>> Hi Roger,
>>
>> So what?
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 3:47 PM, Roger Clough  wrote:
>>
>> Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy
>>
>> By poet, I suspect that Bruno was attesting to
>> Nietzsche's ability to think in terms of metaphors
>> (such as Apollo and Dionysius in his "Genealogy of Morals." )
>>
>>
>> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
>> 11/6/2012
>>
>> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen
>>
>>
>> ----- Receiving the following content -----
>>
>> From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy
>> Receiver: everything-list
>> Time: 2012-11-06, 07:48:01
>>
>> Subject: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 1:28 PM, Bruno Marchal ?rote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On 05 Nov 2012, at 13:43, Roger Clough wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Shades of Nietzsche ! Tell me it isn't so !
>>
>>
>>
>> No, it is not so. No worry to have. I am glad we share some uneasiness
>> with Nietzche. I take it for a great poet, but a bad philosopher.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ?
>>
>> Then your German is better than mine, as a native speaker. Having enough
>> distance and humor for one's own statements doesn't come through much in
>> the translations. I don't think he ever took himself "seriously" as a
>> philosopher, and he often pokes subtly fun at the notion.
>>
>> Ok, I'll get back to the herd then :)
>>
>> Cowboy
>>
>>
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