Hi Bruno Marchal  

A later Lutheran by the name of Kierkegaard said that God, 
being infinite, is an absurdity to finite man's brain. Being an absurdity,
reason cannot apprehend God.  K said instead that God
can only be experienced subjectively, and that that 
experience of God was simply one of trust, as a child trusts
its parents, its mother especially. Lutherans call that trust faith.

This lead K to conclude (and I agree) that truth is subjective (1p). 

Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
11/7/2012  
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 


----- Receiving the following content -----  
From: Bruno Marchal  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2012-11-07, 12:17:50 
Subject: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ? 




On 07 Nov 2012, at 15:44, Roger Clough wrote: 


Hi Bruno Marchal  

I feel exactly as you do. I would never have Nietzsche's books burned,  
there is much of value in them. Or at least some value. 
His criticism of reason's being used by Christianity, for example, parallels to 
 
an appreciable extent Luther's criticism of the Catholic church, 
three centuries previously, which held reason and action over faith  
(Luther held faith over everything). That was the breaking point 
for the Reformation. 

Luther in fact said that "Reason is the Devil's whore." 
He later softened that view but just a little. 







It is a difficult subject, as the aristotelian conception of platonism is 
different from a platonist conception of platonism. 


Through Augustin we can only say that a *part* of Platonism has gone through, 
in christianism, but usually it concerns the mystics teaching, which is usually 
ignored when lived and recuperate and distorted after. The same with Judaism 
and Islam, although later, whose mainstream will "fall in the aristotelian 
metaphysical trap", with exception, again among the mystics, or the occultists 
(Sufi, Cabbala). And it is hard to separate the occultism  and secrecy due to 
oppression, from the literal misunderstanding leading to the superstitions, all 
this in complex historical evolution. 


The idea that reason is the Devil is a constant in all religion which lack 
faith in God, as if you needed to lie or to hide anything to protect God! 


There is no conflict between reason and faith, as truth extends reason. In 
practice we are often wrong so this needs an ability to revise opinions, and 
changing one's mind, even if it is harder on the fundamentals. 


Bruno 















Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net  
11/7/2012  
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen  


----- Receiving the following content -----  
From: Bruno Marchal  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2012-11-07, 05:39:11  
Subject: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ?  




On 06 Nov 2012, at 17:45, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote:  


Hi Roger,  

If you want to read him that trivially, go ahead. The constant, eternal 
revaluation of all values. This is just implied by asking "what's going on?".  

And yes, this is gently consistent with never ending platonic questioning + a 
popper style negation, even humor, on his own statements, that they are wrong, 
that they not be overly concretized. Nietzsche never "taught his own ideas", 
although he was active academically very early.  

If you'd open a single page, you'd see how conflicted he was about the 
transmission of fruits of introspection. But I wouldn't want to offend you with 
any of that, or that I think he anticipated the computer + its consequences 
more than once, as you already have made up your mind in a rather 
discriminatory fashion without reading the man/machine in his native language, 
so...  

I am not merely a platonist: also guitar cowboy and dance and jam in every 
realm I can and keep my platonism in check with my sense of groove and swing + 
good steak, now and then. I have a taste for the Dionysian joys, for colors, 
and richness, variety as much as I love Platonia.  

But Platonia, in this abstract technical sense you imply, is pretty joyless and 
dull. Nietzsche is good antidote for that. On Kant he mused once: "What kind of 
a soul must build such an unassailable fortress of thought? What is it 
distracting itself from, building these labyrinths of descriptive power for a 
group of disciples it will never admit to itself, that it vainly wants to have? 
For why else build such fortresses?"  

For these reason I'd suggest for you to not read him, especially not in German. 
Right on with "garbage he taught", would be the first thing he'd admit and 
laugh.  





It does look we agree that Nietzsche was a poet with a deep talent. I read 
"Also Sprach Zarathustra", in german and in french, and I love it, but, later, 
rereading it, I got a feeling of uneasiness. I got it also with many people 
idolatring Nietzche, or taking granted what he said, I dunno.  
It might be, correct me if I am wrong, a sort of remanent atheism in the work, 
or perhaps it is, like with art, just a question of taste. May be I have 
unconsciously rely his "uber mensh" with what happened in WW II.  
I certainly do appreciare Richard Strauss "Also Sprach Zarathustra", but that's 
thanks to "2001 Space Odyssey", plausibly!  


Bruno  















PGC  


On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 4:59 PM, Roger Clough wrote:  

Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy  


So what ? I have no stomach for the revaluation  
of all values and the other garbage Nietzsche  
taught. If you are truly a platonist, you would  
agree with me.  





Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net  
11/6/2012  
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen  


----- Receiving the following content -----  
From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy  
Receiver: everything-list  

Time: 2012-11-06, 10:35:15  
Subject: Re: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ?  


Hi Roger,  

So what?  



On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 3:47 PM, Roger Clough wrote:  

Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy  

By poet, I suspect that Bruno was attesting to  
Nietzsche's ability to think in terms of metaphors  
(such as Apollo and Dionysius in his "Genealogy of Morals." )  


Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net  
11/6/2012  

"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen  


----- Receiving the following content -----  

From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2012-11-06, 07:48:01  

Subject: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ?  







On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 1:28 PM, Bruno Marchal ?rote:  




On 05 Nov 2012, at 13:43, Roger Clough wrote:  




Shades of Nietzsche ! Tell me it isn't so !  



No, it is not so. No worry to have. I am glad we share some uneasiness with 
Nietzche. I take it for a great poet, but a bad philosopher.  





?  

Then your German is better than mine, as a native speaker. Having enough 
distance and humor for one's own statements doesn't come through much in the 
translations. I don't think he ever took himself "seriously" as a philosopher, 
and he often pokes subtly fun at the notion.  

Ok, I'll get back to the herd then :)  

Cowboy  


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