Hi Bruno Marchal 

IMHO Good is no more arbitrary than life is. 


[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
1/3/2013 
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: Bruno Marchal 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2013-01-02, 14:55:31
Subject: Re: The evolution of good and evil




On 02 Jan 2013, at 13:08, Telmo Menezes wrote:


In my opinion, good and evil are just names we attach to brain processes we all 
have in common. These brain processes make us pursue the best interest of 
society instead of our own self-interest. I believe they have two main sources:


1) Biological evolution. In the long term, the DNA of the species as more 
chances of thriving if the individuals are altruistic to a degree. The exact 
mechanism here is debatable, it could be kin-selection (affinity for people 
with similar DNA) or group-selection, which is more controversial. There is 
some compelling evidence to support this theory. Social insects are extremely 
altruistic, and at the same time social insect females share more DNA than most 
animals. Another clue that this is correct comes from experimental psychology: 
we tend to associate physical beauty with goodness and different races with 
evil. 


2) Social constructs created to address the prisoner's dilema: for a society to 
thrive, a certain level of altruism is necessary. From the individual's point 
of view, however, it is irrational to be altruistic to that degree. The 
solution: tell people that they're going to hell if they're not good (or some 
variation of that theme). Religions have a positive impact in our species 
success, and their main job is to solve the prisoner's dilema. They are, 
nevertheless, a ruse.


And a bad one, especially as a ruse. Everyone know what good is and bad is, for 
them. So it is better to do the good for the sake of the good than from 
anything coming from any "authority". 


I expect a person liking me to do the good to me by selfishness, and not 
because she or he fears some punishment or because they would feel guilty or 
something.


The ruse is a diabolical trap.






All attempts to define "good" and "evil" as a fundamental property of the 
universe that I've seen so far quickly descend into circular reasoning: good is 
what good people do, good people are the ones who do good things.



Good and evil cannot be defined but there are many examples. Basically the good 
start when constraints are satisfied. If you are hungry and can eat, that's the 
good. Wandering on a field of mines might not be that good, for you, but 
(perhaps) good for your children and grandchildren.


It seems to me that nature illustrates that selfishness and altruism are 
natural complement of each other.  I would oppose it to egocentrism, where a 
special kind of extreme selfishness develop as it rules out the selfishness of 
others in non reasonable proportions.







Interestingly enough, left-wing atheists end up being similar to the religious: 
they believe in a base line level of altruism in human beings that is not 
supported by evidence.


I am not so sure about that. Most humans would be more happier just knowing 
than more humans can be happier (if it is not their neighbors). 
I think that some problem comes from too much altruistic dreams, and few 
awkward real practice, but they keep growing. Presently alas the 'natural 
altruism" is confronted to the usual fear sellers, and all this is aggravated 
by dilution of responsibility, motivated by will of control, motivated by the 
fear of the unknown, manipulated by minorities (not always aware of this, but I 
think some are).


Bruno


Man has the Good,
He searches for the Best,
He finds the Bad,
And He stays with the Bad by Fear of
finding the Worst.
(A french poet)












On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 12:39 PM, Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net> wrote:


ROGER: There are two opposing forces in the universe, those which enhance 
life, which we call Good, and those which diminish life, which we call Evil. 

CRAIG: I can't relate to cut and dried ideas of Good and Evil or enhancing or 
diminishing of life. 
It seems completely disconnected from reality to me. If it was that obvious, 
why wouldn't 
everyone just do the Good things and avoid Evil things? Obviously our 
experiences have 
many layers and qualities which change dynamically. Anything can be interpreted 
as 
enhancing or diminishing life. Chemotherapy Good or Evil? 
  
ROGER: Good people tend to do good things, evil people to do evil things.
Chemotherapy is thought to do more good than evil. 

<SNIP>

[Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net] 
1/1/2013 
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen 

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