On 04 Jan 2013, at 17:04, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi Bruno Marchal
Religion cannot save you, it cannot even make you a better person.
Only God can do that.
I would say that, religion, well understood, can help.
The problem is in the "well understood", of course :)
Bruno
[Roger Clough], [[email protected]]
1/4/2013
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
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From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2013-01-04, 10:37:13
Subject: Re: The evolution of good and evil
On 03 Jan 2013, at 10:17, Telmo Menezes wrote:
On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 8:55 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 02 Jan 2013, at 13:08, Telmo Menezes wrote:
In my opinion, good and evil are just names we attach to brain
processes we all have in common. These brain processes make us
pursue the best interest of society instead of our own self-
interest. I believe they have two main sources:
1) Biological evolution. In the long term, the DNA of the species as
more chances of thriving if the individuals are altruistic to a
degree. The exact mechanism here is debatable, it could be kin-
selection (affinity for people with similar DNA) or group-selection,
which is more controversial. There is some compelling evidence to
support this theory. Social insects are extremely altruistic, and at
the same time social insect females share more DNA than most
animals. Another clue that this is correct comes from experimental
psychology: we tend to associate physical beauty with goodness and
different races with evil.
2) Social constructs created to address the prisoner's dilema: for a
society to thrive, a certain level of altruism is necessary. From
the individual's point of view, however, it is irrational to be
altruistic to that degree. The solution: tell people that they're
going to hell if they're not good (or some variation of that theme).
Religions have a positive impact in our species success, and their
main job is to solve the prisoner's dilema. They are, nevertheless,
a ruse.
And a bad one, especially as a ruse. Everyone know what good is and
bad is, for them. So it is better to do the good for the sake of the
good than from anything coming from any "authority".
I expect a person liking me to do the good to me by selfishness, and
not because she or he fears some punishment or because they would
feel guilty or something.
I remember an extreme case where I was in a long flight sitting next
to a representative of a given religion. At some point he asked for
a blanket and covered me with it when I was half-asleep, but he
wouldn't talk and seemed repulsed by me.
The ruse is a diabolical trap.
All attempts to define "good" and "evil" as a fundamental property
of the universe that I've seen so far quickly descend into circular
reasoning: good is what good people do, good people are the ones who
do good things.
Good and evil cannot be defined but there are many examples.
Basically the good start when constraints are satisfied. If you are
hungry and can eat, that's the good. Wandering on a field of mines
might not be that good, for you, but (perhaps) good for your
children and grandchildren.
You don't seem to have a lot of faith in the quality of my genetic
material! :)
Er well, try do the children before going on the field of mines!
It seems to me that nature illustrates that selfishness and altruism
are natural complement of each other. I would oppose it to
egocentrism, where a special kind of extreme selfishness develop as
it rules out the selfishness of others in non reasonable proportions.
Interestingly enough, left-wing atheists end up being similar to the
religious: they believe in a base line level of altruism in human
beings that is not supported by evidence.
I am not so sure about that. Most humans would be more happier just
knowing than more humans can be happier (if it is not their
neighbors).
I agree. But will they pay the cost? Will they chose giving to
charity or buying the BMW?
Giving charity does not help the humans to be more happy. If they
are altruist they should buy the BMW.
When money represent work, or speculation on work: that makes human
more happier in the middle run.
When money represent lies, that leads to misery.
When money is a gift: that's a total poison.
Don't take this too much literally.
I have never believed in any notion like charity, or distribution of
wealth. It *looks* nice, but it generates poverty.
I think that some problem comes from too much altruistic dreams, and
few awkward real practice, but they keep growing. Presently alas the
'natural altruism" is confronted to the usual fear sellers, and all
this is aggravated by dilution of responsibility, motivated by will
of control, motivated by the fear of the unknown, manipulated by
minorities (not always aware of this, but I think some are).
I agree with all you say here. Fear is the mind-killer.
Hmm... Fear is an old friend too, but the danger is the manipulation
and exploitation by bandits.
My point is just that we should not try to live in a system that
assumes a level of altruism that isn't there. For example, when
people ask for more government regulation, they don't consider that
the legislators will likely design that legislation with selfish
goals in mind.
Selfishness is good and "natural". It leads to natural altruism
toward those you can identify with (and that can be a very large set
with spiritual practices).
Raymond Smullyan, in "Tao is silent" said (more or less, from
memory): "I like all selfish people, because I can recognize myself,
I hate all altruist people, because I can't and they are never happy".
But selfishness is not egocentricity: it is pathological
selfishness, with loss of empathy.
Bruno
Bruno
Man has the Good,
He searches for the Best,
He finds the Bad,
And He stays with the Bad by Fear of
finding the Worst.
(A french poet)
On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 12:39 PM, Roger Clough wrote:
ROGER: There are two opposing forces in the universe, those which
enhance
life, which we call Good, and those which diminish life, which we
call Evil.
CRAIG: I can't relate to cut and dried ideas of Good and Evil or
enhancing or diminishing of life.
It seems completely disconnected from reality to me. If it was that
obvious, why wouldn't
everyone just do the Good things and avoid Evil things? Obviously
our experiences have
many layers and qualities which change dynamically. Anything can be
interpreted as
enhancing or diminishing life. Chemotherapy Good or Evil?
ROGER: Good people tend to do good things, evil people to do evil
things.
Chemotherapy is thought to do more good than evil.
[Roger Clough], [[email protected]]
1/1/2013
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
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