On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
>
> On 09 Jan 2013, at 16:17, Richard Ruquist wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 09 Jan 2013, at 12:35, Richard Ruquist wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 5:09 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 08 Jan 2013, at 15:59, Roger Clough wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Bruno Marchal
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Whoever invented the word "God" invented atheism.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Not necessarily. The modern notion of God comes with the platonist, and
>>>>> was
>>>>> almost a synonym with "truth". There was an implicit, but reasonable
>>>>> assumption, that humans search truth. Atheism has arised by reaction to
>>>>> *imposed* notion of God, and, unfortunately, throws the "theology" baby
>>>>> with
>>>>> the clerical bath water.
>>>>> Before, God was a scientific hypothesis, more or less equivalent with
>>>>> the
>>>>> idea that there is a reality which transcend us.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Agreed but your next statement is too restrictive in my opinion unless
>>>> you mean experimental proof. For sure there is arithmetic proof that
>>>> goes beyond experimental proof in scope.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I prefer to keep the term "proof" in the strong logician's sense (formal
>>> or
>>> informal).
>>> I would talk only on experimental *evidence*.
>>>
>>> You are right that proof usually can go much farer than any evidence. We
>>> know that there is a prime number bigger than 10^10000, but have no
>>> experimental evidences at all for that!
>>>
>>> But I am saying something stronger: that many arithmetical truth are just
>>> beyond proof (not just beyond experimental evidence). The simplest one is
>>> the consistency of PA, which is true but impossible to be proven by PA.
>>> Note
>>> that by the *completeness theorem* (Gödel 1930), consistency is
>>> equivalent
>>> with "having a model", or having a (mathematical) reality satisfying the
>>> axioms. Self-consistency is already an assertion, made by some machine,
>>> that
>>> there is a transcendental (with respect to that machine) reality.
>>
>>
>> Agreed, and I hope that truth is true .
>
>
> Lol.
>
>
>
>>
>> Can we say that physical particles are often localised volumes
>> that are full of "infinities of discrete number relations"
>
>
> Sounds to much physicalist for me (or comp).
>
>
>
>> and that a "flux density of infinities" can flow between them.
>> Or is that overboard?
>
>
> If not taken literally, it can perhaps help. But there is a risk of reifying
> the particles, or of interpreting the "flux densities of infinities" in a
> too much materialist sense.

But Bruno, you just said that matter came from
"infinities of discrete number relations"

> If you compensate with "matrix-" or "simulacron"-like illustration, that
> will be OK. You need to get the familiarity with the idea that those
> infinities of computations exists in arithmetic, and that it becomes "matter
> appearances" only from the "number's pov" as distributed on the whole UD* or
> (sigma_1) arithmetical truth.
>
> I can find that rather weird too. In the beginning I thought that this was
> just some steps toward a refutation of comp, but like with the Gödelian
> argument against mechanism, when made precise enough, the machine turns such
> argument in favor of comp.
>
> I would never have found comp plausible if there were not the strong
> evidence given by Gödel's theorem, Church thesis and QM. And of course,
> *many* problem are far from being solved (to say the least), but at least we
> have the tools to formulate them precisely.
>
> Bruno
>
Are you granting that QM laws are
arithmetic theorems on the level
as those of Godel and Church?
So you can argue from them
like they were axioms?
Richard


>
>> Richard
>> points and lines
>> word geometry?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> Richard
>>
>>>
>>> Bruno
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Richard
>>>>
>>>>> By definition it cannot be
>>>>> proved to exist, not even named. Exactly like "arithmetical truth" has
>>>>> to
>>>>> appear for any sound machine.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bruno
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
>>>>>> 1/8/2013
>>>>>> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
>>>>>> ----- Receiving the following content -----
>>>>>> From: Bruno Marchal
>>>>>> Receiver: everything-list
>>>>>> Time: 2013-01-08, 09:52:18
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Science is a religion by itself.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 07 Jan 2013, at 19:47, John Clark wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 7, 2013   wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Consider God, a word for Mind
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OK, I have a mind therefore I am God.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I said it before I'll say it again, for some strange reason that is
>>>>>> unknown to me many people are willing to abandon the idea of God but
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> word G-O-D. Those letters and in that sequence (DOG just will not do)
>>>>>> MUST
>>>>>> be preserved and it doesn't matter what it means.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> GOD means the reality in which you believe. It is, imo, a bit more
>>>>>> neutral
>>>>>> than "Universe", which is the third Aristotelian God, and which does
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> belong to what constitutes the "being" for the Platonist. Since about
>>>>>> 1500
>>>>>> years, the term "God" has acquired many christian cultural colors, but
>>>>>> there
>>>>>> is no reason to identify God with the God-father of Christian
>>>>>> "theory".
>>>>>> God
>>>>>> has no name, in many theologies, so all terms to designate it can only
>>>>>> be a
>>>>>> fuzzy pointer. Tao is not bad, as it has many similar qualities than
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> abramanic god, but with a less "person" feature. I use the term God to
>>>>>> designate whatever transcend us and is responsible for our existence.
>>>>>> With
>>>>>> comp, I am open to the idea that (arithmetical) truth can play that
>>>>>> role,
>>>>>> and this is exploited in the arithmetical interpretation of Plotinus
>>>>>> 'neoplatonism'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bruno
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>>> Groups
>>>>>> "Everything List" group.
>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>>>>> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>> Groups
>>>>> "Everything List" group.
>>>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>>>> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>> Groups
>>>> "Everything List" group.
>>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>>> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
>>>>
>>>
>>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>>> "Everything List" group.
>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
>>>
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Everything List" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
>>
>
> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Everything List" group.
> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.

Reply via email to