On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: > > On 09 Jan 2013, at 12:35, Richard Ruquist wrote: > >> On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 5:09 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 08 Jan 2013, at 15:59, Roger Clough wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Bruno Marchal >>>> >>>> Whoever invented the word "God" invented atheism. >>> >>> >>> >>> Not necessarily. The modern notion of God comes with the platonist, and >>> was >>> almost a synonym with "truth". There was an implicit, but reasonable >>> assumption, that humans search truth. Atheism has arised by reaction to >>> *imposed* notion of God, and, unfortunately, throws the "theology" baby >>> with >>> the clerical bath water. >>> Before, God was a scientific hypothesis, more or less equivalent with the >>> idea that there is a reality which transcend us. >> >> >> Agreed but your next statement is too restrictive in my opinion unless >> you mean experimental proof. For sure there is arithmetic proof that >> goes beyond experimental proof in scope. > > > I prefer to keep the term "proof" in the strong logician's sense (formal or > informal). > I would talk only on experimental *evidence*. > > You are right that proof usually can go much farer than any evidence. We > know that there is a prime number bigger than 10^10000, but have no > experimental evidences at all for that! > > But I am saying something stronger: that many arithmetical truth are just > beyond proof (not just beyond experimental evidence). The simplest one is > the consistency of PA, which is true but impossible to be proven by PA. Note > that by the *completeness theorem* (Gödel 1930), consistency is equivalent > with "having a model", or having a (mathematical) reality satisfying the > axioms. Self-consistency is already an assertion, made by some machine, that > there is a transcendental (with respect to that machine) reality.
Agreed, and I hope that truth is true . Richard > > Bruno > > > > > > > >> Richard >> >>> By definition it cannot be >>> proved to exist, not even named. Exactly like "arithmetical truth" has to >>> appear for any sound machine. >>> >>> Bruno >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> [Roger Clough], [[email protected]] >>>> 1/8/2013 >>>> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen >>>> ----- Receiving the following content ----- >>>> From: Bruno Marchal >>>> Receiver: everything-list >>>> Time: 2013-01-08, 09:52:18 >>>> Subject: Re: Science is a religion by itself. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 07 Jan 2013, at 19:47, John Clark wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Consider God, a word for Mind >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> OK, I have a mind therefore I am God. >>>> >>>> I said it before I'll say it again, for some strange reason that is >>>> unknown to me many people are willing to abandon the idea of God but not >>>> the >>>> word G-O-D. Those letters and in that sequence (DOG just will not do) >>>> MUST >>>> be preserved and it doesn't matter what it means. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> GOD means the reality in which you believe. It is, imo, a bit more >>>> neutral >>>> than "Universe", which is the third Aristotelian God, and which does not >>>> belong to what constitutes the "being" for the Platonist. Since about >>>> 1500 >>>> years, the term "God" has acquired many christian cultural colors, but >>>> there >>>> is no reason to identify God with the God-father of Christian "theory". >>>> God >>>> has no name, in many theologies, so all terms to designate it can only >>>> be a >>>> fuzzy pointer. Tao is not bad, as it has many similar qualities than the >>>> abramanic god, but with a less "person" feature. I use the term God to >>>> designate whatever transcend us and is responsible for our existence. >>>> With >>>> comp, I am open to the idea that (arithmetical) truth can play that >>>> role, >>>> and this is exploited in the arithmetical interpretation of Plotinus >>>> 'neoplatonism'. >>>> >>>> >>>> Bruno >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups >>>> "Everything List" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> [email protected]. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>>> >>> >>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Everything List" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> [email protected]. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected]. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >> > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
