[Roger Clough], [[email protected]]
1/10/2013
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2013-01-09, 09:58:55
Subject: Re: Whoever invented the word "God" invented atheism.
On 09 Jan 2013, at 12:27, Roger Clough wrote:
> Hi Bruno Marchal
>
> Am I wrong ? I don't think that "complexity" and Platonism
> (top-down being) suit each other. Complexity seems to arise from
> bottom-up
> being as sets of miracles that happen when the Aristotelian
> intellect gets stuck.
Complexity arise in numbers due to the intrinsic relation between
addition and multiplication, which notably makes possible computations
and self-reference, and separate truth (God) from provability
(intellect).
Bruno
>
> [Roger Clough], [[email protected]]
> 1/9/2013
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
> ----- Receiving the following content -----
> From: Bruno Marchal
> Receiver: everything-list
> Time: 2013-01-09, 05:37:48
> Subject: Re: Whoever invented the word "God" invented atheism.
>
>
>
>
> On 08 Jan 2013, at 21:25, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
>
>
> Le me add some meat here
>
>
> We can not reduce the concept of God to a boring principle that we
> need to put somewhere. Like a ugly furniture inherited from the
> grand-parents which for its sentimental value we have to keep and
> locate somewhere, so that the familly visits show that you are a
> well educated and respectful person. God is like the refligerator.
> if you drop the old one, you need another. Why? because religion -or
> an extended notion of religion and divinity- is deeply embedded in
> human nature. An objective study of God includes an explanation of
> the subjective reality or the resulting description is incomplete.
> if the reality is overall, mental and divinity a neccesity, then the
> divinity is part of reality
>
>
> For reasons that I detail below, God must be the absolute source of
> meaning in all aspects. therefore it embodies the causation and
> direction of what is "physical" as well as what is mental, personal
> or moral and any else. Therefore, for the believer, God must be
> personal, among other things, or else, the believer lacks a
> foundation for the aspects that God does not includes.
>
>
> As I tried to show in robotic Truth, religion is a neccesity for the
> operation of social beings.
>
>
> For all machines, actually. Even when isolated. the "robotic truth"
> can be approached by introspection when the machine complexity is
> above the L?ian threshold.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> If there is no agreed meaning, that is, goals, there is no
> inequivocal rules for social action. if there are no inequivocal
> rules for social coordination, descoordination and internal
> decomposition of the group follows. For that matter religion is the
> core social instinct. it is as deeply embedded in social nature as
> is other unique human traits, like the white in the eyes, another
> social adaptation (facilitates the reading of the emotional states
> and intentions of others).
>
>
> Probably the first religion was a cult of the person of the recently
> dead leader of the tribe that was an example and a guide to all the
> other members by emulation. That's why by history and by neccesity a
> god, must be personal .
>
>
> A society with a impersonal Principle is full of smalller personal
> gods in conflict, sometimes violent. Philosophers, Demagoges,
> scientis, rock stars, Soccer clubs. This politheism becomes salient
> and agressive when there is no personal God, or, at least, no Cesar
> or Zeus that make clear who is the ultimate authority. A dialectic
> materialist society need a Lenin and a Stalin because its impersonal
> Principle is not personal. The abstract and incognoscible Allah need
> a ruthless political Mahoma.
>
>
> The cult to the blood, the leader and the territory. These are the
> almost mathematically inexorable traits of the primitive tribal
> religion that we have by default in the genes. In the origin, the
> cult to the leader, the public rites, The bloody sacrifices, All are
> devoted to strengthen coordination and ensure collaboration, and
> mutual recognition between the members. And the sharp distinction
> between us and the others.
>
>
> A membrane separates the entity from the outside and defines an
> living unit that perdures in time, be it a cell or a society, in the
> latter case, the membrane is created by religion, the physical
> territory and the blood ties. In this sense, primitive religion may
> be exigent, very exigent and dangerous. The bloody mesoamerican
> religions, which grew unchallenged during centuries, with his
> pyramids of skulls illustrate how a primitive religion evolves in
> itself when not absorbed or conquered by a superior civilization.
>
>
> Hmm...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> That? why the belief in a all transcendent God that created all men
> at its image and dignity and incarnated in a person, Christ to
> imitate, is the best use of this unavoidable and necessary part of
> us called religion. In this sense, Christianity free us from the
> obedience to the dictatorial earthly leaders, the bloody sacrifices,
> the cult to the lebensraung (vital space) of the tribe , or the
> supertribe, with its psycopathic treatment to "the others".
>
>
> Because nihilism is unbearable except as a self-steem booster by
> means of a self-exhibition of strength for a certain time, as the
> young russians did in the early XX century. If hihilism would not
> be painful it would not be a matter of exhibition. Sooner or later
> the nihilist has to choose between the suicide, that has a perfect
> evolutionary sense, since someone isolated, with no guide to help
> others in society is a social burden, and suicide is the social
> apoptosis, by means of which the social body re-absorb the useless.
>
>
>
>
> Or else the , guided by its simple instints and devoid of the
> experience and traditions of the past, and therefore with no vaccine
> for the recurrent errors of humanity, the unbeliever will reinvent
> again and again the primitive cults to the earth the tiranic leader
> and the blood. Of course with the fashionable decorations of our
> time; Probably some eco-globalist-aborto-eugenesist cult with a
> greath leader that would suspend our rights, for the good of
> humanity and the planet, of course.
>
>
> I agree partially. But the Christian have politicized religion,
> where the greeks have succeeded in making it into a science, and
> today we have not yet come back to the scientific attitude in those
> matter. There is a strong resistance from fundamentalist atheists,
> more numerous than I thought possible. European atheism seems
> different than american atheism (which is often just agnosticism).
>
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 2013/1/8 John Clark
>
> On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 9:59 AM, Roger Clough wrote:
>
>
>
>> Whoever invented the word "God" invented atheism.
>
>
> Yes, I agree with that, one clearly had to come before the other.
> Before some human invented God there was no need for another human
> to invent atheism.
>
> John K Clark
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> Alberto.
>
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> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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