On 21 Jan 2013, at 17:45, Craig Weinberg wrote:

On Monday, January 21, 2013 8:30:39 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 20 Jan 2013, at 19:19, Craig Weinberg wrote:

> On Friday, January 18, 2013 1:15:09 PM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:
> On 17 Jan 2013, at 18:50, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>> On Wednesday, January 16, 2013 7:06:03 PM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King
>> wrote:
>> On 1/16/2013 5:32 PM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
>> > That is the most clear demosnstration that what we perceive is in
>> the
>> > mind ,and the rest out of the mind is only mathematics (or some
>> kind
>> > of underlying conputation)
>> Mathematics is even further in the mind than geometry (which is why
>> 3D geometry is intuitive to any toddler, while learning basic
>> arithmetic takes some work).
>> Mathematics does not exist on its own. It does not haunt the vacuum
>> of distance.
> In your theory. But it has not yet been developed, and it is a bit
> exhausting that you talk systematically like knowing a truth.  You
> are unclear on your idea, and unclear why they should be a problem
> for comp, or even for arithmetical realism. I am not sure
> "mathematics exists" make any sense to me.
> I am only unclear in why you would think that I am unclear.

Of course.

> My understanding is that arithmetic truth is one facet of pattern
> recognition,

Can you define "pattern recognition" without arithmetic or equivalent?
I doubt.

Pattern recognition is the private presentation of experience. It has no further definition because it is an ontological primitive. Arithmetic adds an expectation of reliability and precision to that fundamental nature, but reliability and precision are also private presentations of experience as well. Certainly the capacity to experience the pattern of wetness or dizzyness need not supervene on any arithmetic basis.

We have a different methodology. I start from what people agree on,
like simple arithmetic, and computationalism, then i derive from this.
But you start from your intuition.

I start from the recognition that what people agree on, or think they agree on, is also intuition. You start by overlooking the intuition behind the initial agreements on what are actually complex intellectual products of human civilization. Your intuition is that these products, because of their seeming universality and circular validation of themselves, are a potential replacement for the conscious reasoning which has invented/discovered/refined them. I see that as clearly a confirmation bias amplified by selective disqualification.

If you don't take arithmetic as primitive, I can prove that you cannot
derive both addition and multiplication, nor the existence of

You are saying that you can prove that the only way a computer can exist is if arithmetic is irreducible?

I did not say that. I was saying that you have to assume the numbers and plus+times (or equivalent) to define pattern recognition, computers, etc. If you take pattern recognition as primitive, you don't help me to understand anything you say.

Okay, prove that.

Then everything around me does not make sense.


Because without computer in reality, I have one mystery more: how is it that I can send you a mail?

If you
believe you can derive them, then do it. But you proceed like a
literary philosophers, so I have doubt you can derive addition and
multiplication in the sense I would wait for.

I have done this many times already, but you aren't really hearing or understanding. Arithmetic primitives depend on more primitive sensory-motor experiences. Addition and multiplication are not literal phenomena, rather they are analytical descriptions and interpretations of phenomena which are either bodies in space, experiences through time, or combinations and continuations thereof. To get to addition, you need to have an experience of counting, of memory, of discernment and augmentation, of solitary coherence and multiplicity, of succession and sequence, of presentation and representation...so many things... I have repeated this several times, why do you act as if I have been silent on this point?

Sorry but you are confusing the numbers I assume, to explain just the working of a computer, with the human intuition of numbers, and the human senses, which needs the whole biological evolution to be explained. But you talk like if you start from human sense, which is non sensical for me. Sorry.

> which is the universal primitive upon which both ideal and material
> realism depends. Because arithmetic is a private representation of
> other private representations, it has no public existence which is
> independent of sense,

Assuming what?

Assuming that we have not detected 'numbers' appearing out of thin air?


> nor could any configuration of figures and functions give rise to
> any form of sense were they hypothetically able to exist
> independently of sense.
> Please don't hesitate to let me know what seems unclear about that.

In difficult interdisciplinary domain, actually even just in the
foundation of math, you can be clear only by working axiomatically or
semi-axiomatically, but this needs a kind of work that you have
already rejected in previous discussion, so I cannot insist on this.
It is just sad that your fuzzy theory makes you think that machine
cannot support thinking.

It's not sad if I'm right.

That is subjective. I think it is sad even if you are right, as it makes the zombies possible.

To me it's sad that we are seriously considering that machines could generate thinking based on nothing but superficial correspondences to behavior, especially when we know specifically that behavior and consciousness are not directly correlated.

You are deadly wrong on this. The fact that machine could possibly think is, for me, more related in the fact that they are mute on the deep question than by any kind of behavior they can have. But for this you need to dig deeper in computer science than you seem willing to be, so I am not sure I can really convince you. You want stick on prejudices without opening the file.





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